'85 Maserati biturbo

Run! Don't walk!

This is the car that put Maserati into bankruptcy.

I wouldn't take it for FREE!

 

I used to have a shop that repaired these. I have to tell you, they are just horrible. The water pumps seize and then drop the timing belt (kaboom), it's impossible to get them to pass emeissions testing with the carbureator under the dome, the turbos don't last more than 12K miles without blowing up oil into the dome (and fixing the turbos is expensive and ...expensive). You can't find a good mechanic to work on them, the ZF box is really a piece of junk, those that had intercoolers leak, the fuse boxes melt if you use the AC too much (10 K miles is the average I think). The AC condensor goes bad (very common) and you have to disassemble half the passenger side dash to get to it.

There is so much patched up engineering it's embarrassing. They had to use a plastic tie to hold a temperature sensor on the top hose of the radiator to turn the fans on because it overheated if they didn't.

The interiors fall apart. The fake swede in the upper dash just turns to dust over time. The seats crack. The paint fades. The gas filled tubes that hold open the hood and the trunk fail.... it's hopeless.

OH! And run for the hills if you find one with an Automatic box. The gearing is completely wrong with the turbo's. A VW bug is faster. Almost all the Spiders were Automatic. The last year they had a 5 speed and Weber injection. Sounds great eh? Well, the only other car that came in with Weber injection was the Diablo. Try getting an electronic testing unit for that in your local shop. Why they couldn't use Bosch like the rest of the world I'll never know.

Yes, the great minds running the company at the time decided that all Spiders should be AUTOMATIC. So, they are all DOGS (with the exception of the last year but their aren't too many of them around.

Here's another problem. People who bought these 2nd hand or 3rd hand got them CHEAP -- maybe less than $5K. Well, the first time they took it in for a problem they got sticker shock. So, they just stopped fixing them and drove them into the ground. You'll find a lot of them like that. People who should never have bought one (or thought it was a fancy BMW) destroyed a lot of cars because of a lack of service.

On top of all that, they just plain break a lot AND they're not much fun to drive. There is a reason why Jeremy Clarkson said this was the worst exotic car in the world. Good reason.

I own a 2002 Maserati Spider Cambiocorsa. Believe me, that's the car to buy if you want a cheap exotic. It's reliable (at least mine is), fun, has a great engine made by the guys down the street in Maranello, a fantastic convertible top, a super leather interior, GPS, an F-1 gearbox, AC that really works, terrific looks, doesn't overheat, and a great exhaust note (better with a Tubi) AND you can get service at a dealer (don't try to bring in a pre-ferrari takeover Bi-Turbo Maserati or you will be shown the door). Yes, the F-1 box is a bit jerky but it's an acquired taste.

Those you can get pretty cheap too if you hunt around. Most likely, the 2004+ were the best.

Sorry if I've offended any lovers of the Bi-Turbo but it's my experience that these things are just as bad as people think they are. Maybe worse. Too bad really because the Nissan GT-R is really the proper, modern day version of it (well, at least in principle).

 

Bottom line, no matter how it looks, it can't be cheap enough.

What more would you like to know?

 

You will never hear anything different than this from a number of people on site. It's not exactly a balanced view.
For another perspective you might look at this thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201994
There are other websites like Biturbozentrum on Yahoo you can go to for more details from owners that actually like these cars and are successful maintaining them.
But caveat emptor as most of these cars have been taken care of by people with the attitudes already outlined in this thread so usuallythey're a mess beyond reasonable financial redemption. The same is true for certain Lamborghinis. You have to really want one. Pick a good one.

Bob S.

 

Minico,

I was told by at least 3 different people the same thing about the BiTurbo. You might be lucky and find a good 1-owner car in excellent condition, but it probably won't be cheap. Bdelp probably gave the most descriptive answer I have ever read. I'll keep that for future reference, the next time I see an late 80's early 90's Biturbo or Quattroporte for sale (at a really low price) and I start getting that urge to own my first exotic.

By the way...congrats on the recent purchase of the 308 GT4! I hope I get a chance to see it at a future FCA-MAR event!

Bill

 

Well this really is for the most part a bunch of hate filled blather riddled with quite a number of errors.

Let's start with one premise. Detomaso did a horrible job bringing these to the USA just like he did with the Pantera. The emissions systems were un-engineered. The whole endeavor was under funded and poorly managed. I would agree with some of the engineering shortcuts but a temperature sensor on the radiator hose? Lots of cars have heat sensors in a variety od locations. MIne is is indeed held on quite nicely with a wire tie and it's still there and still operational.

That ZF box has been utilzed on a number of vehicles but one thing I would agree with is if you tweak the car for more power it's not up to the job without getting beefed up. That's tru of a lot of cars.

Now years down the road can they be fun and reliable? Yes. I've had mine since 1985 with 65K miles on it and it's a very comfortable, stylish fast and fun car to drive. I get to 60 in 5.7 seconds and top out at 140 mph in air conditioned comfort and yes the AC works fine.

You can get the fueboxes modified reasonably to eliminate the overload from the ventilation fan.

Get the watercooled turbos or put those on when the time comes. Oil cooler turbos are dumb.

"The gearing is completely wrong with the turbo's. A VW bug is faster. Almost all the Spiders were Automatic. The last year they had a 5 speed and Weber injection. Sounds great eh? Well, the only other car that came in with Weber injection was the Diablo. Try getting an electronic testing unit for that in your local shop. Why they couldn't use Bosch like the rest of the world I'll never know."

I count 5 errors in that statement. Stock they were 6.7 to 60 and with the optional intercooler it was 6.3. Which VW bug are you talking about?
In 1986 the spiders were automatic after that (87,89 90) they were mostly manuals but a few were automatic and by then it was a very nice 4 speed ZF unit and its a good fit.
Weber Injection, ever head of an F40 or Cosworth?

If you're going to criticize these cars at least know what you're talking about. Believe me there's plenty of points to pick on you've just misled people on most of them and propagated a bunch of BS in the process.

I also would never compared the Biturbos (we got the earliest and worst in the USA) to Ferraris misguided upgrade of the 3200GT into the last GT. It has way more content and was built a full 15 years later. As a basic car it's vastly superior except for the styling which is why it has been a relative failure here. This is like comparing a 70's-80's Alfa spider with a 308 spider. Those cars are worlds apart in price sophistication and price. It's the same with the last GT coupe and all of the Biturbo variants.

"On top of all that, they just plain break a lot AND they're not much fun to drive. There is a reason why Jeremy Clarkson said this was the worst exotic car in the world. Good reason."

You've clearly never driven a well sorted one and Clarkson is an idiot. Remember what he did to that poor Merak? It's just show business stuff for morons.

Bob S.

 

Bill

I agree that it's going to be very hard to find a good one and that alone may be reason enough to stay away. What Bdelp wrote was a very hate biased and in many places inaccurate description of the Biturbos. He should talk about something he actually knows something about instead. If you got the problem cars brought in by a 2nd or third owner after years of neglected maintenance then I can certainly see how those opinions were formed. That alone shouldn't lead one to the conclusions and mistatements he listed. They were probably disasters way before they entered his door. I can list plenty of other cars that fell into that category and some are now worth a lot of money. Not to worry THAT will never happen to Biturbos.

Bob S.

 

Bob,

Thanks for your post. I may not take Bdelp's word as Gospel, but I too have been told by 3 people to "Run, Don't Walk" from the 80's BiTurbo's and Quattroportes. Only one person (at the time) had good comments about the cars (Joe - Italiancars). But then Joe has been fortunate to own some wonderful Masers and I know he takes care of his cars! But when I see a BiTurbo or a Quattroporte for sale I can't help but think why are these people trying to get rid of their cars? Is it because of all the bad luck they've had with it? From the outside the cars look to be in fine shape. And the interiors look fantastic as most Masers do...but I still can't help to wonder what's hiding underneath.

Bill

 

Ok, just what is hate filled? I'm just being honest.

Does the timing belt break if you the water pump seizes?.... absolutely.

Do the turbos blow up routinely?..... yes.

Are the turbos a total pain and expensive to replace?... yes.

Is the car virtually impossible to get past emissions testing?... yes.

Is the temperature sensor for the electric fans tied with a black plastic tie on the upper radiator hose?... yes (and, how many untrained mechanics REMEMBER to put it back when they take the radiator out which is about the first step you have to do on virtually any repair on this car?)

Is the swede in the dash fake?... yes.

Is it virtually impossible to find a good mechanic to work on one?... yes.

Does the automatic box performance SUCK? ... yes.

Were virtually all Spiders ever made have an Automatic box?.... yes.

Did a lot of people buy these used paying less than 5 grand and then stop fixing them when they got their first repair bill?.... yes.

Did Maserati switch to Weber Fuel injection in the last year?.... yes. Please tell me another car imported at that time that used Weber FI.

Will a Ferrari dealership fix a Bi-Turbo even thought they are Maserati dealers?.... no.

OK, will give you the one about the fuse box. Yes, you can get one that works better. But, most people never bothered. In the early days, I had customers who replaced them every year because the engineering of the connectors inside was so POOR. This was common knowledge at Maserati at the time. Everyone knew it.

Sorry, these are just plain facts. If you like Bi-Turbos' ---great. Go for it. I'm not saying anyone who owns one is a fool. But, if a guy in this forum asks if he thinks he should drop down his own cash on one, I'm going to warn him.

NOW, when it comes to the Q-porte, that's a differnent animal. I have a much higher regard for it than I do the Bi-Turbo. Unfortunately, it was tainted by the Bi-Turbo's problems. I like Q-portes quite a bit AS I DO MASERATI -- just not the Bi-Turbo. I love the classics, I love the newer cars, and I love the mark. I just hate what was done to it in the 80's -- something that even today the brand struggles with. In fact, I would argue that despite the troubled cars of the 80's the name and brand are so strong, it could even overcome this major black mark in it's wonderful history.

 

I owned an 85 Biturbo, and loved everything about the car. Very Italian, but it left me stranded one day...End of story.

 

Oh so predictable and this is a tireless chore but then ignoramuses are like that so one at a time and I shall endeavor to stick to the facts ...

Water pump failure can cause the timing belt to strip/slip. Once again proper maintenance. 1984-2008 same water pump no failure.

Do the turbos blow up routinely, well if you have the oil cooled ones (as previously mentioned only 84-85) yes. Those were gone by 1986. Care to ask about other turbo cars from that era?

Very few cars offer inexpensive turbo replacement. Ask about the expense for a turbo replacement for an Audi. Are they a PITA to get to? Um, my guess is yes.

Untrained mechanics, I assume you include yourself, need I say more?

Oh I can't believe this one .. Is the suede in the dash fake. Yes, it's alcantara. The very same material offered in the current Gran Tourismo.

Is it virtually impossible to find a competent mechanic to work on one? Why yes, they always seem to find people like you ... Sorry I couldn't resist that one.

"Were virtually all Spiders ever made have an Automatic box?.... yes." No, sir you are just plain ignorant on this point.

"Did a lot of people buy these used paying less than 5 grand and then stop fixing them when they got their first repair bill?.... yes." Hard to know about that piece of supposition but I will grant you that a lot of people bought these cars used in poor condition at a very low price. They deserved what they got. There's no free lunch ...

"Did Maserati switch to Weber Fuel injection in the last year?.... yes. Please tell me another car imported at that time that used Weber FI." No and already done. But just to take pity on you, once again now, read very slowly Ferrari F40 and Cosworth, not to mention world rally champion Lancia.

"Will a Ferrari dealership fix a Bi-Turbo even thought they are Maserati dealers?.... no." You are absolutely correct about this Sir!
Finally, you got one thing correct! With rare exceptions they also won't work on anything pre 2002.

Frankly, you deserved this tongue lashing because you are simply ill informed. The point is you have a quite bias. Are Biturbos terrific cars? I'd be a fool to suggest that. Are they as bad as you make out? Of course not.

That your arguments are so full of holes is ample evidence of that.

Bob S.

 

You know what I'm not going to argue with anyone anymore on this issue. Some people like them, I hate them. I hate them for what they did to the brand and to many innocent purchasers of this car. But, as long as someone has made a claim that we don't know anything...I'll let the readers of this forum decide.

My chief mechanic went to Maserati service school, complete his training, and was fully accredited. We were authorized to do factory warranty service (provided the dealer authorized us to do the work), which we did often because the local dealer (Ford/Jaguar) was always swamped.

We were the largest purchasers of parts from MIE in our area. When someone called MIE asking about recommending an independent shop in our area who would work on them, quite often they gave them our number. I got ALL my Maserati customers by word of mouth referrals and hand me down cars.

We worked on other Maserati's too. Ghibli's, Mistrals, Mexicos, Sebrings, the various Q-portes of course. The most modern Maserati we worked on was a 225 which came out near the time I sold the business. I bet there were less than 100 that came into the country.

My shop repaired Italian cars for over 10 years, with literally a hundred (over the years) happy Maserti bi-turbo customers who thanked GOD that we actually kept them on the road. I had up to 3 generations of owners who brought their car to us. Some people brought them to us from over a hundred miles away just for service (I kid you not).

And when you work on that many cars over that long a period of time, you see everything.

If I had a nickel for every owner who came in needing service and they said "well, just patch it up... I'm going to sell it", I'd be Bill Gates. That blown turbo that is no more expensive than an Audi to fix... what good is that when the person just bought the entire car for $3000? Yes, I had customers like that (especially near the end). I saw some so badly maintained, they had body parts held on with wire (like the rear bumper and exhaust system. Some came in so dirty, you think they were in a tractor pull event. Still, we tried to keep them on the road.

We'd work and SLAVE to get them to pass emissions. It might take all day to get it to finally pass. What did I charge? About a hundred bucks parts and labor for a tune up. I couldn't charge real time and labor... people would just junk them because they couldn't get the license tags. I felt it was better to lose money but keep it on the road another year than let the car go to waste. But, every time I'd see a guy come in the shop with his "failure to pass" form and just about cry.

It was people like US -- the independant shops--- that kept these things from literally falling apart. It certainly wasn't Maserati USA or the dealers. When the dealers all closed, who was it that kept the cars on the road? Pep boys?

In case you're wondering, my shop was never "sued", involved in any legal action, or had any complaints filed with the BBB. Did every customer leave with a smiling face? No, that's impossible. But most did and became happy repeat customers. You can't survive in that business with that narrow a customer base for 10 years if your reputation is shot.

So, before you criticise anyone, you might want instead to THANK ANY SHOP that took the time, care, and effort to actually keep Bi-turbos running for years. It would have been a lot easier to tell people to hit the road.

I sold the business in 1989 (actually, it's still around). But, from 1981 to 1992 our shop restored and raced a 70's era Formula One car at Monterey (yes, I have heard of Cosworth -- as in DFV), prepared and crewed a Formula Jr car for Denny Hulme (also at Monterey), and restored and raced Paul Newman's race-built glass bodied 308GTB in vintage, amongst other things. We raced vintage cars for our customers as far east as Lime Rock and as far west as New Zealand. I'm proud of the work we did and for keeping as many Italian machines on the road as possible. Very proud.

This board is for sharing information. That's all I am doing. If someone wants to stand up and claim the Bi-Turbo is a great reliable machine, that Maserati at the time was a wonderful organization, that the dealer network was the best, that quality of the machines leaving the factory was excellent, that the engineering was no worse than any other Italian car of the time, go ahead. No one is stopping them. Others may have a different opinion than mine and you won't see me criticizing them. If someone thinks this young man should purchase a Maserati Bi-turbo, go ahead and give him your reasons. Let him decide.

But, like I said, if someone wants to ask this board about whether or not they should put real hard earned money down on any car, I think it's our responsibility to keep our EMOTIONS aside and tell the truth about our personal experiences.

Now, I have no ill feelings to anyone. As I said in my first post, if I upset any Bi-turbo owners, I apologise. But, I will not apologise for what experiences I have personally witnessed and helping someone decide whether they should purchase a car or not if they ask. In fact, if I didn't I'd feel worse.

Good day for those who took the effort to read this and my previous posts on the issue. I'm done.... and thank you!

 

No, I like GT4's. I had 2 308's in the 80's -- a GTB 2 valve and a GTSi QV I had one customer with a black euro GT4 that I serviced for years. He would never sell it. Since I was in college I have never been without at least one italian car. Love 'em.

Good luck with the GT4! It's a really nice car.

Now... I am really out!

 

Ok I agree we should keep the emotions down but let's not miss the point that it was you who came on like gang busters with every negative thing you could think of about these cars. If you look at what I said I believe for the most part I was criticizing your "stated facts".

In a public forum that gets done, especially when there are errors.

Many of your statements were not accurate or gratuitous like the hood/trunk struts. But you missed some juicy ones that are true like those stupid cylinder liner seals on the early cars. Any car still running today had that fixed a long time ago. Or the emissions control systems that not only could never work correctly but if a less than educated consumer was driving the car it could actually be set on fire. Leaving the choke on with a catalytic equipped car is a no no. But then carbs and cats don't mix very well. These systems didn't work properly on the very expensive and exclusive Bora, Khamsin or QPIII either. My Bora damn near burnt up in Denver one day from those thermal reactors. I believe Porsche had similar issues with thermal reactors.

Since you had to try and fix these cars within the law I can sympathize with your plight at the time. It certainly explains your frustration and anger towards these cars. I gave up on having Maserati or the dealer fix the problems as their hands were tied. Even if they knew how to correct a design problem and there plenty of those they legally couldn't. That, was Maserati's fault no question about it. Fortunately for me I developed a relationship with their two technical guys and I was able to straighten my car out nicely. Most people were not that fortunate and at the time very few spent the effort to straighten them out. Today a lot more is know about how to take care of them and the legal restrictions are no longer an obstacle.

Having worked on as many exotics and Biturbos as you've indicated I still don't understand some of the statements like spiders being mostly automatics automatics and the Weber Marelli FI but it was a long time ago ...

Bob S.

 

Minico - That's great!! I look forward to seeing your car and taking some pictures. By the way, you should check out: http://www.fca-mar.com/ClubEvents.asp for upcoming events. This Monday and Tuesday are Track days at Summit Point. You may not want to track your car yet, but it's still a great place to hang out and meet other Fchatter's. Sorry for the Thread HiJack!

Bob and Bdelp there's no need to argue. Thanks to you both for your imput. It very clear how much we all appreciate the Maserati mark!! You know it's funny...last night I was watching the Speed Channel and I saw the tail end of "Supercars Exposed". What a crappy program!!! In any case they were talking about Maserati's. The show visited a museum in California (Riverside??) and it had on display a model of every Maserati from the 70's to the present.

The host (a younger guy) who didn't know very much about Maserati's except for what he read off the queue cards was talking about the MC-12 when they cut in the middle of their segment to a BiTurbo and made it a point to say how it's the worst car in Maserati's history. They then proceeded to cut to a salvage yard where you see a crane smash through and grab a BiTurbo and put it in the shredder. Then they cut back to the host test driving an MC-12 and he kept saying how the car is basically an Enzo. I had to turn the show off, because I couldn't watch anymore.

Anyway, back to this thread. Are there any picture threads of BiTurbo's. They may be the blackeye of the company but perhaps we can highlight some of the better examples of this model??

Bill

 

Some Biturbo threads.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76446&highlight=BITURBO

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184002&highlight=BITURBO

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165894&highlight=BITURBO

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134306&highlight=BITURBO

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24420&highlight=BITURBO

 

Yes Bill I've seen that one too. If you're a Maserati fan it's a big dissapointment except for the MC12. That museum is run by Doug Magnon and his father. Last summer Doug was nice enough to bring quite a few of his Maserati GT cars plus the MC12 out to Le Belle Machinne d' Italia. He put quite a set of unique one-offs on the concours lawn. I was also luckly enough to get a ride in his MC12 at the track.

It is true that without the Enzo there certainly would have been no MC12 but it is very different car. I like them both.

That show looks like most of the museum stuff was left on the cutting room floor and of course when finished the segment by ripping off Jeremy Clarkson's Biturbo stunt but this time shredding one.

Makes it a favorite with me ;>))

Bob S.

 

Bob,

I remember seeing the MC-12 at La Bella Macchina last year. Unfortunately, I could not attend this year.

Does the museum have a website?? Or do you know the full name so I can google-it?

Bill

 

Racer 18/6 1989.
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This year there was another street MC12 and an oh so mean looking black MC12 Corsa which did run at the track!

Here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKCXoybico

Bob S.

 

This is the Museum, download the brochure PDF for directions.

http://www.riversideinternationalraceway.com/

They have added a nice collection of Eagle Indy cars.