'84 Grigio/Tan 5 Speed for sale, $32K--48Kmi. | FerrariChat

'84 Grigio/Tan 5 Speed for sale, $32K--48Kmi.

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by blkprlz, Aug 16, 2012.

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  1. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,169
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
  2. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,632
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    This is 43665

    That's the old Chuck Queener car who had it in the town next to me. He used to bring it to C&C events quite often. He put a lot of money into it over the four years or so that he owned it and it should be mechanically sorted. He sold it in March of this year to a buyer (a dealer/reseller I think) in Canada.

    I have been familiar with this car since 1998 when I drove it when it was for sale by The Stable in New Jersey. At that time it had a slightly grayer color and a weak second gear synchro, both of which have been changed (at least the synchro was reported to be fixed and Chuck didn't seem to complain about it).

    Weak points? Mainly the interior, a bit worn leather, carpets soiled, leather shrinkage under the windshield (that's why that little extra panel is there), probably the tires.
     
  3. MBFerrari

    MBFerrari F1 Veteran

    Jul 2, 2008
    6,057
    NoVA
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    Matt B
    Nice looking car. The pics could be a bit better. Wax it up and put it in front of a better background, but nonetheless it sounds like one worth considering.

    MB
     
  4. 4re308

    4re308 F1 Rookie

    Jun 13, 2001
    4,813
    Woodstock, GA
    Full Name:
    Mitch D
    Hey wow that is a really nice car. I might call him today and ask a few more questions....I'm interested in the car for my dad.
     
  5. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    #5 samsaprunoff, Dec 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good day All,

    Just documenting these cars, as I find them.

    Cheers,

    Sam

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-400i-5-Speed-Manual-Transmission-/190764315451?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c6a70733b

    83 Ferrari 400i 5 Speed
    Color: Grey Exterior with Tan Interior
    Mileage: 46800
    Location: Rochester, New York, USA
    VIN: ZFFEB07B000043665
    Chassis: 43665
    Bid: $4550.00 USD (4 Bids)
    Buy It Now: $30000.00 USD

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  6. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    If this car was in New Jersey in 1998 -- 15 years ago -- was street driven in Connecticut, and is now in New York, how can it still have a California title?
     
  7. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,241
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    And currently registered in new York. I don't get it.

    Still- a 5 speed in a nice color that should sell for around $20K- Invest another $10K in leather, carpets and an overall freshening and you've got a fine car.
     
  8. jm3

    jm3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2002
    4,364
    United States
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    JM3
    What is a "Connecticut supplement"?????



     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Jay,

    Since the seller lists a Buy it Now of $30K my guess is that the reserve will be closer to this amount than the $20K you suggested. That being said, you are quite correct that that car does have some (costly) needs like the interior for sure and I did notice that the headers look like they have a fair amount of surface rust... which in itself may be indicative of rusty headers (which are also pricey)... all of which makes Buy It now price somewhat high in my opinion.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,632
    MA
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    John
    He didn't say that the car is registered in New York, just that it can be viewed in upstate NY. The seller is from Canada, near Toronto, and he bought the car in March from Chuck. It looks as though he changed the steering wheel and put it immediately on the market at the marked up price of $32K, now $30K.
     
  11. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    That's a difficult way to get a steering wheel!
     
  12. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,241
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Sam,

    This looks like a car that has sat for some time exposed to the elements or possibly in a "tent" where moisture could rise through the engine compartment. $10k is a fantasy of course- cars like this... you could spent two or three times that amount to set them straight.

    Given clean largely restored 5 speeds are still only mid $30s cars I don't see all that much value in this car.
     
  13. DDD

    DDD Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2011
    371
    Full Name:
    Domenic
    I agree that these cars are worth under 20K they really arent appreciating even 5 speeds for 30K I have seen them in perfect shape so if anyone pays over 20 unless it is in 1 condition is just overpaying
     
  14. Schumi

    Schumi Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 5, 2002
    827
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Daren
    I looked at this car prior to finding my old one. After many emails and looking over the photos I decided to pass. There were just too many unanswered questions and rust spots in odd areas I thought. While I disagree with the overall 400i-value opinion of DDD, this car is overpriced given what it will take to make it right.
     
  15. Frrarinut

    Frrarinut Rookie

    Jan 10, 2012
    40
    Connecticut does not issue new official titles on cars of this age, but it does issue another document that shows who owns the car, that it is insured and plated and this document sits beside the previous California title as a kind of supplemental document, so the car still has the original of its California title with it, and it has the Connecticut paperwork as well. If you wanted to register the car in Ontario for example, the license office would want to see the Connecticut papers, but then they would also take the California (original) document before they would issue a new Ontario Title/registration document. They won't accept a photocopy, but they will accept a government issued original of a prior title.
     
  16. Frrarinut

    Frrarinut Rookie

    Jan 10, 2012
    40
    I regularly see 400's selling in Europe for prices that look to be about double what the same car might bring in the US. Prices also seem to be much higher in Canada than the US. For reasons not understood by the rest of the market, 400 values are consistently pushed down in the US. This trend is enforced by the constant thread-bashing here of cars that are listed for sale elsewhere. These are truly fabulous cars, and there is no reason why the prices should in the territory of used Honda Accords, while European collectors pay prices similar to similar to Maseratis or Porsches... Should a V12 Ferrari cost less than a 1979 Porsche 911? People have no problem paying $60,000 for a 1972 Mercedes 280SL, but $30,000 for a V12 5 speed Ferrari that has never seen rain is thought to be a crazy price... Perhaps the problem is that owners in the US pay far, far, far more for the maintenance and restoration on these cars than owners/collectors in the rest of the world, which drives down the selling prices. New potential buyers who see the tremendous value in these cars, come to this forum to look for more information about these cars, and what they read are scary stories about what may (or may not be) wrong with each car, and how the car that would easily sell in Europe for $45,000 is WORTH ONLY $10,000. This simply scares away the potential new owner, and then the prices fall more, and more and more. Perhaps we should be focusing our efforts on sharing sources and ways to maintain these cars for less cost, and spending our time trying to boost up the reputation and the selling prices of these cars that we love so much...? I would think it would be in all of our interests to promote these cars that we love and see their values rise, not fall.
     
  17. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,632
    MA
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    John
    I don't know who you are or what your authority is on 5 speed 400i pricing but I think that I can say with some authority after tracking these cars for 15 years that I seriously doubt that you will ever be able to buy any decent (doesn't have to be a 1) 5 speed for under $20K in the current market. You may think that is all they are worth but that is your opinion and not backed up by the opinion of the market. The reality is that, particularly in Europe, but also on this side of the pond, they have sold and will sell for much more than that. If your threshold target for buying a decent 5 speed is $20K or under, you can show that bid to the owners of the 40 or so cars known to be in the U.S. but I think that you will be without for a very long time.

    Disclosure: I'm saying this as a seller so take my words with a grain of salt but I know exactly what the buyer of Chuck's car paid for it and it was far higher than $20K. He obviously felt that he was paying a wholesale price as he intended to flip the car and only time will tell whether he read the market correctly.
     
  18. Frrarinut

    Frrarinut Rookie

    Jan 10, 2012
    40
    Yes, but he didn't buy it intending to flip it. He bought the car because it is a lot of car, with an extensive service history, great performance, and a blast to drive, for not a lot of money...and because they look good with tan leather and a black dash.

    I believe that these cars are undervalued in today's market (here, at least),and I hope that the values do rise because these cars do a lot of things really well, and seeing them neglected, or getting broken for parts just feels wrong. I think that five years from now we will be saying "Do you remember when you could buy a good 400i for under $30,000? I wish had bought that one..."
     
  19. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Frrarinut,

    Indeed the market appears stronger in Europe than in the US (cannot include Canada since very few cars seem to trade here)... at least given the asking prices in Europe... Personally I cannot say what the market truly is in Europe, as I really do not know what cars actually sell for and for what condition. I have seen (via websites) a number of 400's/365's for sale in Europe and it would appear that these cars are not selling...I base this on the ads which show the same car over many, many months. Did these cars sell and the ads were not removed? Hard to say, but then it would mean that a dozen (or so) cars from different dealers all forgot to take down their ads... not very likely in my opinion. My point is that basing the European market on asking prices is not truly the current market... it is an indicator, but only that. If you have other data besides asking prices, then by all means post up.

    Secondly, there is no absolute frame of reference for a car's condition. Mileage, maintenance, etc are indicators, but one cannot use these as a valid apples to apples comparison. Thus, you have another variable to consider along with the asking/sales prices. I am by no means an expert, but what I have seen is that European cars tend to have more mileage on them than the US counterparts. This can be a good thing or a bad thing... Good, as these cars tend to work better when used rather than sitting... Bad, because the components could be also more worn (i.e. paint, interior, mechanical items, etc.). Again, you have yet another variable to your European/US market comparison.

    As for your comment about car bashing on here... I think this is a strong comment and is unwarranted. Indeed, perhaps some comments are far reaching, but there are others that truly comment about items that a perspective owner should consider. Unless one has done a lot of homework an/or have experience getting into this model (and others too) can cost a lot of $$$ pretty fast... engine, exhaust, body, etc all add up very quickly and so having people candidly comment on potential weak parts on a car can be of tremendous assistance to others. Can this deter potential sales? Sure, but is it not be better for a potential buyer to know what they are getting into? For example some can get lulled into a relatively inexpensive purchase price only to find that the true cost to bring the car up to a reasonable standard is much, much more than they anticipated... and thus the car is either cobbled together, sold, or left to rot somewhere... which in itself does not help the model's reputation. Comments good or bad help to educate others... If you feel that someone's comment is truly bashing (i.e. saying something that is untrue, has little merit, or is being overly nit picking, etc) then post a rebuttal... take it upon yourself to keep the thread's comments "honest"... this helps all who read these threads.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  20. Frrarinut

    Frrarinut Rookie

    Jan 10, 2012
    40
    Hi Sam,
    I agree with your comment on actual selling prices versus asking prices, and that it often takes a long time to sell a car if you are looking for a decent price and a good buyer. Another factor to consider on European pricing is that in my opinion the average condition of a collector car in Europe seems to be better than the average condition of a collector car in North America, which is then reflected in higher average prices. Having said all that 400i cars seem to suffer from a "bad rap" here in the U.S. maybe partially because they were gray market cars and sometimes frowned upon by Ferrari dealers, and partially because of the automatic transmissions. Personally, I would only be interested in a five speed 400i and I can understand the price spread, similar to Mercedes 280SL's with manual transmission often commanding a $5000 to $10,000 premium over a comparable 280SL with auto transmission. I keep goinig back to 280SL's because I have both, and the 280SL's command twice the price, while I feel the Ferrari is a better, faster, more rare car. Why is a 400i $30,000 while a 365GT2+2 is $100,000+ ?? I feel I know the reasons but I think the 400i should be $60,000 today. As far as price points in Canada, there was a nice blue/tan 400i 5 speed at a dealer in Toronto last year priced in the high forties that sold at something over $40K. Not a perfect car by any means but a nice clean, well maintained once-painted car. There have been a couple of cars in Montreal at similar prices. I feel the black car now on ebay looks really nice and clean, and looks like great value to me, compared with other cars like 308GTB, 550's, Mercedes, Porsche, Maserati Indy, Khamsin, Islero, Espada and many others. Regarding "car bashing" I have personally experienced a number of patently false comments being posted here about my own cars, often by people who have never seen the car, which is why I have not posted here in many, many months. There seems to be more of that here than on any of the other forums where I go for technical help, ideas and to chat with other car crazy people. I don't feel like I want to spend a great deal of time diffusing rumors about my cars, but I do invite any of you to drop by my place at any time, take a look at the actual cars, go for a drive, and have a coffee and/or the adult beverage of your choice. Then we can see if it has factory paint, a sunroof cut in the top, clean or rusty floors, transmission failure, etc., etc. At the end of the day if someone buys one of these cars, and enjoys driving it, whether it is perfect or carrying defects, that is a good thing for the car, the Ferrari community, the value of our own cars, our access to spare parts, and (I hope) that someone will have a big smile on their face. I feel that it behoves me to help others enjoy these cars as much as I do.
     
  21. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Frrarinut,

    I do not think there is one definitive answer to why the US 400 market is what it is. I do think that one element key point you raised is their Grey market attribute... Places like CA which has a huge car culture and is one of Ferrari's key markets, have super strict emission requirements and so having a grey market car, etc really affects the ability to register a 400/365 there... thus ignoring CA as a possible sales market really takes away a large number of potential buyers. That is not to say that CA is the only market, but it is one of the largest...

    As for your comments:

    The market is what it is... Why are 246 Dinos commanding the $$$ they do where Boxers are somewhat low at just over $100's for the average ones? Again the market is sweet on Dinos... The 400 as compared to the queen mother... again different market segment, different car, different era... The market values other items that are less tangible.

    I think that you are not too far off for cars that are exceptional or very, very good. I disagree if you think that the cars that are going between $20K and $30K should be $60K though... As a number of them require a lot of love, time, and $$$ to bring them up to the level of the cars that are mid $40's and up.

    Secondly, I think what hurts the US market is that there has been a lot of cars that have not been maintained too well and are "tired" and so these tend to create a price range most people see... Sadly, some good solid cars get caught in this perception and suffer. Other owners see this range and given its value perhaps influences them to forgo the required maintenance needed on these cars. For example if one thinks their car is worth $25K and they have to spend $10K on maintenance, some may not decide to do this... Look no further than this car, where the owner decided not to do anything on the interior and to me it affects its price...

    As for comments that are ill meaning or uninformed... I suggest you speak up. I know I have done so and never suffered anyone's or any groups' wrath. We all have our opinions and it is important to express one's own if one really disagrees. It is true that it is really tough to assess a car based upon pictures, but at times that is all one has. There are things that we may comment/chat about but at best these are indicators or elements to a car's condition. They are not definite and it is up to the potential buyer to do some due diligence, but it does given the potential buyer some other items to consider and/or investigate. Like I said before, speak up if you see something amiss.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  22. Ed_Trottier

    Ed_Trottier Rookie
    BANNED

    Dec 10, 2008
    24
    Moneta, VA (SML)
    Full Name:
    Ed Trottier
    OK, I give up! Puzzled by the "reversed" tail lamps. My '84 400i GT has red brake lights outside, amber turn signals inside. This is the second example I see on FerrariChat. Need to check Ferrari posters/reviews to find out if this is, in fact, a "reversal." Done at conversion to US specs?
     
  23. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,632
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    No, probably done after a repaint or rear end damage repair. I can see how someone might think that it is logical to put the red on the outside but really that is where the turn signals belong. The turn signals on the outside is the way that God and Enzo intended.
     
  24. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    I did not previously see this thread's early December discussion of the fair market value of the 400i in the US of A. But here's some solid evidence of what that fmv is: this thread regarding a very recent eBay auction of an '84. If you click on the eBay link in the first post you will see that the auction topped out at $21,000. There was another bidder who went to $20,900, but no higher. This car looks like a really desireable candidate for anyone who wants a sorted daily driver 400i Series II. Yet no one in the entire country -- well, no one who was included in the 1700 viewers of the auction page -- was willing to pay more than $21,000 for it. I don't know what the discount is for eBay uncertainty about a car, versus a face-to-face transaction. But it can't be more than $5,000, i.e., that someone who did a PPI and/or a personal inspection would not be offering more than $26,000. And this is for a California-registered car that had its registration renewed at some point in 2012, which implies that it also passed Smog Check at that time (unless it's registered in a non-Smog Check county). I don't see much point in arguing that the market is stupid and ought to be paying more for this car. It's a simple fact, that this auction ended at $21,000. It also appears, again, that this is a very solid and desireable example of a 400i Series II driver.
     
  25. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    it's very hard to comprehend...and even though i'd fully expect a Series 2 automatic to be slightly less valuable than the others in the series, it still reflects badly on all.

    oh well, i'll just try to put that out my mind while i'm enjoying the 365 and 400a this summer because, well, what else can you do ?

    on an unrelated note, you seem to be making constant headway with yours Bill and she shows well in the pics you've posted !
     

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