812 VS Rumors | Page 132 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Here's a nice video on this exact topic:



    start about 4m 40s into video
    shows GPF up close
     
  2. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    I think the factory made a very large mistake with the early reveal of the SF90, it destroyed the 812SF order book, many orders (confirmed by various USA dealers) were transferred from 812SF to SF90 (the new 'top' production car). This was a huge mistake, a year later it was basically impossible to order an 812SF, it was out of production, 2 years ahead of expectation, it only have 3 model year run. This mistake was further compounded by it taking 18 months for the SF90 to finally have its first customer deliveries. Even 7 months after reveal of the SF90 the 'dealer show' cars were inoperative cars that did not drive. The SF90 reveal should of waited until March 2020 so the factory could of confirmed they had everything technically aligned to make the reveal and path to production a lot smoother. And that would of given the 812SF more time to continue with a full order book.

    The factory realizes this huge mistake, and that will impact their decisions regarding the 812VS...for instance, has there ever been a 'version speciale' of any regular production model that is first revealed after the car it is based upon has gone out of production? I believe this is a first. It is antithetical to a smooth transition of models, it's like 'going backwards' especially when you consider that both the reveal and eventual production (6-12 months later..or more) results in a large gap. The only saving grace is the 812GTS remains in production.

    Because the SF90 has claimed both the top model of regular production and highest base price there is an issue with the 812VS and where it fits. The 812GTS was simple in comparison, a modest price increase over the 812SF, done.

    Because the 812SF (the coupe) literally went out production in the shadow of a future product's reveal a year earlier, what's the motivation to even have a special version of that same car whose order book disappeared? Well, the factory's motivation is because this was part of their plan for 2017 forward, so this is what they intended, but, the whole game has changed.

    If the 812VS has a 5% power bump without some other new feature such as 9500rpm rev limit, and it is priced the same as the SF90, why not just order the SF90? But if the 812VS has a lower base (say 500K) than the SF90, then it fits better into the pecking order Ferrari has established (based on power) and at that price point, time-limited, make as many as you can...because there is the other complication of Euro 7 that will make any future V12 model very difficult if not impossible for the EU/China markets(since China typically uses the EU's emissions criteria for itself).

    If the 812VS has that same 5% power bump (and maybe 200kg lighter weight) but Ferrari wants to charge a higher base price than the SF90, well then, who would want that? The market already (essentially) rejected the 812SF at 800PS once the SF90 was revealed. I think the only 'who' would want that would be those seeking favor with factory (i.e. buy every new model made, etc), and there are a limited number of those individuals and that number apparently is on the decrease because of recent issues with being that type of customer(discussed elsewhere on this site). So that only makes sense to be numbered as there is a limited group of those types of individuals (both coupe and aperta versions of 812VS)

    However, if we are all surprised and the 812VS is hybrid and is 980PS+ (more or less matching the SF90) then, gloves off, price it up over the SF90 and then the tough decisions, numbered or not, I think not because such a car could sell 1000s of units. Remember, the last numbered car (besides Icona/Monza) was what? The tdF, and that car was created and planned before Ferrari went public, so since Ferrari has gone public not a single regular production car's 'version speciale' has been numbered....why should they, they are public company now and have a new master, the markets.
     
    rossodino, LARRYH, Eilig and 3 others like this.
  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
    16,445
    ON
    Full Name:
    CH
    Right on the money. No warm and fuzzy feeling, just the hard numbers that don't lie. Both time wise or dollar wise there is a lot to answer for.
     
  4. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 19, 2006
    16,101
    Full Name:
    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    Just wait until the SF90VS debuts! Doh. :)
     
  5. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    If there will be an SF90 VS it has to be a much bigger step from the base model, as there already is the Assetto Fiorano. When I think about SF90 VS I have a feeling it could go in the direction of 288 GTO vs 308 GTB.
     
  6. clockem

    clockem Formula 3

    May 18, 2009
    1,117
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Gary
    Let’s not forget since going public they have released a coupe and then before it even is distributed to customers they announce the spyder version. Ie the F8! Dealers in the US had significant cancellations of the coupe for the spyder. Same with the SF 90 at least in the US. I am not aware of one customer delivery in the US. Not sure what strategy they have except to deliver value to the shareholders. They still however make an amazing car


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  7. ilcapodizurigo

    ilcapodizurigo Karting

    Oct 16, 2019
    192
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    John Meier
    Agree to your post and thank you for the very interesting way of looking at it. I think that is exactly why the 812VS will def. be limited in number of units built. They will not sell them if it'll be the same principle/procedure like for the Pista. You can't scam your clients twice. People are dumb but not that dumb either... Also, it will be the last naturally aspirated V12; no discussion. Except of course some Iconas or One-Off projects in the future.

    My guess: 812MM & 812MM Aperta, 6.5L N/A V12, 840PS, limited to 812 and 412 units, respectively. Next week or first week of February criteria will be communicated to dealers and thereafter dealers will start communicating to clients. Presentation will take place at rescheduled Finali Mondiali in the beginning of March in Misano. In terms of pricing, I'd guess the base price will be at USD 500k +-. No clue what the criteria will look like... Again, here my guess: at least two V12s, including either 812SF or GTS, at least two of either Roma, Lusso or Portofino, perhaps owning one (+) VS car(s). Big boost will give you racing involvement and of course a long history with the brand.
     
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  8. MidnightRun

    MidnightRun Karting

    Nov 4, 2006
    152
    "If the 812VS has a 5% power bump without some other new feature such as 9500rpm rev limit, and it is priced the same as the SF90, why not just order the SF90?"

    Why? Ans.: There are those of us who see the window of opportunity closing on cars with attributes we prefer and presently enjoy. Folks like me are assembling a small stable of cars which will be held and enjoyed over the remainder of our lifetime. An 812 SF is presently within my current small stable; I'd like to replace it with one final, ultimate, traditional front engined 12 cylinder NA Ferrari. I'm willing to pay a princely sum to Ferrari to accomplish this objective. I fully anticipate that the 812 VS will have less power than the SF90 and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm also willing to spend SF90 money, or more, to obtain an 812 VS. There are those of us who think that the SF90 is a cool car, but we don't regard it as a keeper for a variety of reasons. To achieve my objective, my current funds are committed to buying 'keepers.' Against this backdrop, a SF90 is of no real interest to me.
     
    mayer, Shack and JTSE30 like this.
  9. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,503
    Earth
    Will the 812VS and 812VS Aperta be released at the same time ? Makes sense IMO
     
  10. isot

    isot Formula 3

    May 6, 2012
    1,130
    Lucca
    Full Name:
    Alberto
    I've always dreamed of a launch of two cars at the same time. I think it only happened in 2019 on the occasion of the Universo Ferrari, where the F8 Spider and 812GTS were presented. It would be nice to present the Coupe and Spider at the same time but they usually tend to lengthen the soup..

    Who then come to tell you that every time they make a Spider they have to rethink the car from scratch. But that's not true. Let's take the SF90: in my opinion they made both coupe and spider at the same time, thanks to the technology of the rigid roof. Indeed the Spider was probably born first and the coupe came by itself
     
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  11. ilcapodizurigo

    ilcapodizurigo Karting

    Oct 16, 2019
    192
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    John Meier
    Agreed! Most of us will always remain Ferrari aficionados, but let's just be honest - who would buy an SF90 over an 812 GTS. The SF90 is subjectively 'cool' and futuristic to look at but it frankly has nothing to do with what the brand stood for from day one. A front engined V12 berlinetta with little digital components, beautiful distinct design language and unmistakable sound is essentially the mix of elements which shaped the brand. (Btw. I am 28 years old, not 70) The SF90 on the other hand, will in a very short period of time be forgotten and will be part of this diluted era of cars. EVs are the future of automobile manufacturing, however I have a doubtful opinion that Ferrari will be able to keep up against the Taycans of this world. The fidgety touch screen steering wheel and overall tech that does not work, the crapy exhaust sound and the boring & soulless driving experience is why I'd never get an SF90. We should ask ourselves, why do we share this love for the prancing horse, it's because the brand gives us an emotion and character which all other sports car manufacturers can't resemble - with a large part of it being due to its racing DNA and history. In a couple of years from now, these last cars will be something very special; and the best part of it is, to being able to enjoy them till that day. Even more so an 812VS. Long story short, Ferrari will continue going down this path (which they obviously have to) and I am sure they'll do well in the short- to mid-run. The FUV will drop, people will buy it just like the Urus and I'll still prefer my Lusso over it hahah. But what's next? Where will the brand be in 7 or so years from now... We'll see... I received my GTS, hoping to get my hands on 812VS and will then start building my collection with old and young timers of the best brand in the world.
     
    Bundy, Traveller, maxemus and 9 others like this.
  12. ppg70

    ppg70 Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2017
    928
    may be February 12th?
     
  13. JagShergill

    JagShergill Formula 3

    Dec 31, 2014
    1,661
    England
    Full Name:
    Jag shergill
    i think that’s all going to probably v accurate
     
  14. JagShergill

    JagShergill Formula 3

    Dec 31, 2014
    1,661
    England
    Full Name:
    Jag shergill
    Yes! Ferrari Friday feb 12th seems a good call !!
     
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  15. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,737
    There won't be any event in Italy until at least April.
    Visiting Emilia Romagna requires a ten day quarantine.

    Presentation will be digitally for dealers and top clients.
    March.

    Marcel Massini
     
    TSOYBELIS, rossodino, 9nb and 5 others like this.
  16. khal360

    khal360 Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2005
    282
     
  17. khal360

    khal360 Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2005
    282
    Couldn’t have said it better. We have cars now that ridicule almost any speed limit. It’s not how fast you go but how the car makes you feel. My GTS arrives in a few months and I can’t wait. Will never sell that car. The draconian new regulations will make future cars as fast as jet fighters but will feel like playing Gran Turismo. Sadly the regulators will kill the emotion that is the essence of Ferrari. Let’s hope we can all go back to a simpler time.
     
    ilcapodizurigo, KarlA69 and of2worlds like this.
  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Not to mention
    not to mention increasingly invasive!

    https://www.google.com/search?q=onstar+track+day+corvette
     
  19. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    873
    OC
    Lamborghini, McLaren, Aston and Porsche have all confirmed that it is worth while to develop different exhaust systems and have done so for their entire current lineups. Fairly certain the same can be said for the larger manufacturers such as Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Ferrari is one of the only manufacturers lazy enough to force unnecessary regulation on customers in markets that don’t require them.

    My speculation.... they are extremely stubborn and feel that if they aren’t allowed to have it in Italy, then no one should be allowed to have it anywhere. It’s like asking for salt at a good Italian restaurant... the chef will not be happy. Except in this instance, the chef is Ferrari and the salt is a GPF delete exhaust system.
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  20. nads

    nads Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2008
    875
    London, UK
    I really fail to understand all this bitching and moaning. Ferrari are entitled to do what they want, it is their product and they will make it the way it suits them. If you are not happy with the end result then move on to a manufacturer that is making something that ticks all your boxes. If enough people do that perhaps they will eventually change till then it's just sour grapes and ultimately pointless.
     
  21. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    Midnight Run ... you are The Man! You are even better than the Robert DeNiro and Charles Grodin version! You are my Ferrari soul mate and you have expressed so eloquently why a large cohort of buyers would pay twice as much for an 812 VS as we would for an SF 90 even though it will assuredly have less horsepower.
     
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  22. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    A thoughtful and spot on post! He nailed everything. This guy is my spiritual Ferrari brother.
     
    ilcapodizurigo likes this.
  23. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    570
    This was a thorough and thoughtful post and an interesting perspective. I won’t argue with you that the timing and cadence of their announcements and roll out of the SF 90 was less than ideal.

    I’m not sure a large cohort of potential buyers would be as laser focused on the magnitude of horsepower jump being the overriding determinant of value for the 812 VS.

    There are way more than enough buyers to soak up every car they can make who will happily pay a king’s ransom to get:

    1. What is in all likelihood the last unassisted V12 outside of possibly a future Icona model.
    2. 850 or so horsepower
    3. 200 pounds or so lighter
    4. 20-30% faster gear shifts
    5. At least one new handling or traction technology
    6. More aggressive exhaust note
    7. Extreme race bred body work and aerodynamics
    8. Relative exclusivity or outright rarity
     
  24. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 19, 2006
    16,101
    Full Name:
    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    I believe it was precisely this attitude that decimated the once great British car industry into absolute oblivion. Gone.
     
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  25. maxemus

    maxemus Karting

    Apr 25, 2009
    125
    Miami, FL.
    Full Name:
    Ernie
    I couldn’t afford starting a collection until I was in my 40’s. You sir are well ahead of the curve. Congratulations


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

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