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80 400i 5-spd in Connecticut

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by philS, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. Santos

    Santos Rookie

    Oct 27, 2012
    49
    New York, NY
    I regret not pulling the trigger 12 hours ago, I tell you that...
     
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  3. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    997
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    That's a number of circuits with problems, not one. I don't know what circuit the radio is on, but the AC blower is in the dash and the heater-defroster blowers are in the grille area (!). The worn interior and a second or third paint job also take this car out of the top rank. I am glad to see a 400i "with needs" go for high 20s or low 30s, but I would not kick myself for not being the one to pay that much for this car.
     
  4. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    but God ain't making anymore Series 1 5-speeds Bill...and, after the 365 and 400 GT, that's next in the pecking order.

    the Ferrari world is full of people who kick themselves way, way after the fact and it will happen with this Series also...it has to...and it always has with the 2+2's.

    you only need to look at 330 GT's and 365 GT's right now...because, as you certainly know, a high tide lifts all boats...particularly those as ridiculously underpriced as these.

    between the BB and the 365 GT4 2+2, i'll grab the GT4 2+2 keys 9 times out of 10...
     
  5. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    #54 dogdoc97, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    Spoke to Bill again today, Peter never called him about my request on Friday for the PPI; Peter did NOT return my call today, left him voice mail and email......I know everyone likes this guy but I am not sure that's the right way to conduct business....if Forza represents the top of dealers selling exotics I would rethink that.

    I was not going to flame but I received a PM over the weekend from someone that drove 90 minutes to see a car at Forza; Peter knew this guy was going to make an offer, and then sold the car.

    I suspect that he knew it would NOT pass the PPI and so did not want Bill involved....I am more annoyed than disappointed! Sure could not run my business that way.

    Ps after I offerd a deposit he NEVER mentioned that the car was going on ebay Friday nite, business is business but tell me all the relative info so I could have decided to buy at that point or not......Doc

    PSS Santos, sorry you did not get the car either, Doc
     
  6. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    5,527
    North Pole AK
    I stopped by Forza and Bill's a few years ago. Both seemed like great people but doc I must agree with you, not really the way to conduct business. Hope you find a car. It really is a tough balancing act of finding the "correct car" vs so few available.

    I wonder if we will see less of these cars for sale in the future. I don't think I'll sell mine for a long long time but I guess things can always change. At some point the few remaining cars will end up with owners who really appreciate them and not just people who are filling a Ferrari owning square.
     
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  8. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,084
    Central NJ
    Doc,

    Peter is straightforward. He is also a flipper that sells for a moderate markup so he does not need to keep his inventory long. He's also a one man operation (as far as i know). When ive reached out to him in the past, he has gotten back to me within a few hours to a couple of days. Based on what you posted, it sounded like he was clear that he was unwilling to wait or deal with deposits. Based on what has been posted here in the past day, this was because he had multiple interested parties. It also doesn't sound like he pulled any salesman stuff on you. His listing it on eBay is irrelevant, because it sounds like it sold well in advance of the end of the auction - if you said 'I'll take it' I'm pretty certain he would have honored the price he told you. To me it sounds like he posted the car with a detailed description and sold it to the first person who showed up with the money. He didn't start a bidding war between the interested parties or any other games. Several people here stated that the car would be sold before you had a chance to get a PPI, you said you would take that chance.

    Honestly, from my standpoint, your post sounds like sour grapes.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  9. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    #57 dogdoc97, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    I did state that the car was hot to sell as he did not want to take a deposit...BUT do not tell me you will cordinate for the PPI on Friday and sell it on what appears to be Sunday night; sour grapes, ha, I am a big boy and there is always another bus coming. It's not mssing the car, it's more about doing the right thing. If he had said I have several folks coming by this weekend and it may get sold.....there was no mention of that or ebay. Anyway I am not going to debate it but after getting that PM that a similar thing happened to someone that drove 90 minutes to find out the car got sold....well I just do not agree with that mindset. Moreover, do I not deserve a phone call or email saying its gone; my message said that, "let me know so I can move on". that's not sour grapes, that is just G D courtesy! For me, in day to day dealings I find most businesses seldom do the right thing anymore. I doubt 48 hours would have cost him a sale or put him out of business.

    I agree and posted business is business, flipper is a flipper, but disclose the probability that my PPi is not going to happen, and really if there is so much interest I feel that 48 hours to give me or anyone that showed that much interest (Offering a deposit) first right of refusal would not be unreasonable ...thanks and no need to hammer me on it, I resepct your point,hope you see mine. Doc


    PS and while I agree that if i had said "I will take it" I would have bought the car there are VERY few folks on this board I suspect that ever bought an F car without an inspection, particularly for the older models. All you hear everyday on every forum, this,Mondial, 456 etc "ppi, ppi, ppi" so I think that was not realistic to assume I would pull the trigger on an older car like this, its not American Muscle which is still cheap to fix compared to an F car if you bought it wrong!
     
  10. 3500 GT

    3500 GT Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2008
    1,145
    USA
    Full Name:
    Gentleman Racer
    I don't understand you guys....at least those "interested" in this Ferrari.

    A car is for sale.

    Buy it, or don't buy it, and be quick about it.

    The early bird always gets the worm.

    Less talk = more rock, as they say.

    Ciao and best!
     
  11. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,084
    Central NJ
    #59 ArtS, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    Doc,

    My criticism is only of your post criticizing Peter's business practices, not of your choices regarding the PPI.

    I understand how you feel. However, look at it from the other point of view. If he told you he had multiple interested parties you would have interpreted it as him putting pressure on you. If you then bought it without a PPI and found unexpected issues, you would be much more unhappy than the present situation. Also, for all you know, he may have told someone before you that he wouldn't take a deposit giving you the opportunity to consider it. Someone else saw it and either knew enough to decide on his own or took a huge chance.



    Regards,

    Art S.

    PS. I bought my 330 without an inspection. It was a HUGE mistake. That said, I love my car and the experiences it has provided me.
     
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  13. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    And I appreciate your honesty on your car you bought without the inspection; it's over, its ok and I can move on, its not a life altering event to miss out on a car purchase,lol thanks! Doc
     
  14. Santos

    Santos Rookie

    Oct 27, 2012
    49
    New York, NY
    Thanks, Doc. Good luck in the future. Hopefully there's not a 400 listed in Virginia or we'll both be racing there head-to-head.

    Anyway, I have to agree that Peter's communication could have been better and I was very disappointed in the result of my drive out there. When I was looking over the service records he offhandedly remarked that the car had been put on Ebay. I took it to mean that he was interested in waiting out the bidding cycle. He actually assured me that I could have the night to go home and think it over - and I was ready with checkbook in hand at that very moment!

    However, as 3500 GT and Art seem to be saying, we have to act fast sometimes.

    Weird.
     
  15. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2007
    3,770
    Sarasota, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Stan
    Ferrari buyers (and sellers) can be some fast movers at times.

    It has been a long time since I have offered all the money on a house purchase and a $5,000 cash signing bonus. But it was not that long ago that I bought a Ferrari (without a PPI) offering the seller 100% of ask, and asking if they would prefer it in a cashiers check, a wire, or a briefcase full of small unmarked bills. :)



    Breath deep. Relax. There are a few more months till the good driving weather comes around again.

    But like the Boy Scouts say. ... "Be prepared."

    And happy shopping.
     
  16. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2011
    667
    Lincoln, MA
    Full Name:
    Christian J
    Santos, it was a respray with only 50k miles?
     
  17. Santos

    Santos Rookie

    Oct 27, 2012
    49
    New York, NY
    That's what Peter told me when I asked. The paint was just very deep in a way I hadn't seen on other 400s. He was unsure of the original color, though he guessed the respray was the kept it the same.
     
  18. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I rest my point of view, thanks to ALL of you even if we did not agree how the situation was handled; no one ever died after missing out on a car,including me.... I consider the matter closed.

    Best to ALL of you, I am sure if another one comes up I will still try for that PPI and maybe one time it will stick........Be well, Doc
     
  19. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,265
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
    For what it's worth, of the 7 ferraris I have bought, 6 were bought sight unseen and I did a ppi on just one. It was my first Ferrari and I wanted to make sure it was just right. Despite a PPI the expert mechanic missed a major flaw which cost me a full engine rebuild after 2 months of ownership (not cheap on a twin turbo). The others all required some work but I learned more by going over the car with the owner/ salesperson over the phone and asking the right questions than the first failed PPI. PPI is a snapshot view, not a crystal ball. Not advocating no PPI, but when good car comes up sometimes you need to take the plunge.

    Having been on the receiving end of a PPI when I sold my 456MGT, the mechanic can go over the top and kill a deal. In my case one buyer spent $1200 on a PPI that pointed out every single tiny flaw (normal wear) on a 10 yo car with $38k miles which made him not buy it...2 years later (and who knows how many other ppis) he was still looking and called me asking if I still had it !!.... The funny part another buyer called me a week later after that PPI, we went over the car and he purchased it at my asking price no PPI...and has enjoyed the car since (and still send me Christmas cards).

    Moral of the story, don't let looking for the perfect car that you will never find (or drive) get in the way of getting a good car that you can enjoy for many years...
     
  20. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I agree an inspection is not a "be all" win for the buyer.....but as we say in medicine, when "you hear hoof beats think of horse, not zebras", meaning go with the most common disease processes and you will be in the ball park 90+% of the time. I have to go with the most common process in buying an exotic,i.e. a PPI.

    So while you have been fortunate in almost every case where you did not do a PPI you stated you would not advocate NOT doing one, and so I will have one done each time; right or wrong, good report or bad but in life there are always exceptions.

    The two things they tell you in medical school, NEVER say NEVER, and NEVER say ALWAYS! That advice has served me well.......thanks for your story, clearly you are a braver man than I! Doc
     
  21. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,159
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    Peter is a great guy to deal with, & very good reputation…& with Bill Pollard around the corner, it's a 1 stop shop.
    I have found that once Peter has put a car up for auction, he lets it ride out. If you want it, snipe it :D
     
  22. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,265
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
    .. yes quite aware how medicine works, and as you know good patient history using SOAP can be more effective than a bunch of diagnostic tests (unless someone is more interested in racking up procedural volume ;) )
     
  23. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Just a note on sellers and PPI's... as someone who loves cars and has bought and sold a few over the last 30 years.

    As a seller I have NEVER had a long distance buyer who requested a PPI follow through with the deal- NEVER. This is like a dozen cars out of the 30 or 40 I've bought, enjoyed and then sold. In every single case the cars were really good- rust-free, no major oil leaks, good compression, good leak down but NOT brand new. I started writing up P+S agreements so the buyer would be FORCED to follow through with the deal as long as the compression numbers looked OK- they still backed out.

    Looking at any decently prepared PPI on a 30 or 40 year old car is a HORROR SHOW for someone who has never requested one. "Undercarraige shows damage" "Sway bar bushings are degraded" "engine displays oil leaks from several locations"... etc. These are on EVERY SINGLE PPi for an older car that has not just recently had an engine-out service. If you're buying a true Pebble Beach #1 car then I assume the PPi would be spotless, but a road car- an 80s car- is going to show all the normal stuff that every PPI shows. Maybe you and I know what to really look for- but to the uninitiated it scares them away... almost every time.

    A pro seller who KNOWS he has a decent car will most likely avoid the nervous nellies who need a PPI and then try and negotiate $5k off the price of a 1983 car because the transmission case "Shows evidence of wear". and the number 6 cylinder has "178 lbs" of compression while the number 7 cylinder shows "183 lbs".

    I sold a Porsche 996 two years ago- super nice tight car with 27K on the clock. Sold it THREE times. The first two guys got PPI's with local shops who I knew, and the PPI's looked great- Compression, Leakdown all perfect. Both guys backed out because the engine was not bone dry and the seats "shows signs of moderate wear". The second guy wanted me to knock $7,000 off because the PPI said "Original factory radio and OEM dash assembly replaced with aftermarket unit"- That was the whole selling point of the car- the super nice Pioneer GPS Indash unit!

    The third guy bought it based on the photos and my good word- flew out from Oklahoma- LOVED the car, Synced his phone via bluetooth, slapped a plate on and drove home- Two years later he is LOVING it and keeps asking me if I want to sell anything else!
     
  24. Santos

    Santos Rookie

    Oct 27, 2012
    49
    New York, NY
    My last car purchase was long range based only on photos and a few conversations with the knowledgeable, conscientious guy who was selling. Flew down to Georgia pick it up, enjoyed a wonderful drive back along the Blue Ridge Parkway and have loved the car ever since.

    I suppose once you get your feet wet with vintage Ferraris impulse buying may be easier but as this would be my first, I feel like I don't know it like I know other marques and feel a bit more cautious than I probably should. What it boils down to, though, is that it's another car with rings, pistons, gaskets, filters, coolers, etc. that all fail the same way. If you feel confident with cars in general there should be no problem evaluating your own potential Ferrari.
     
  25. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2008
    2,017
    did the Burgundy 400 5 spd sell? how much? I can't find the info. just curious. thanks.
     
  26. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 5, 2002
    28,585
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    #73 Ashman, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
    My main rule about buying a car is to see it myself. If it is expensive (for me) and a mistake would be even more expensive, I get a PPI. Did that on my 400i in California and was there for the PPI so I could see everything myself. Even with the PPI, expect some things to be missed. For example, we both took a look at the spare tire in the trunk but we didn't pull it out or even push it to see if it held air. Turns out it had a cut in the sidewall underneath and was useless even as a spare. It didn't matter since I had factored in 4 new TRX's for the car anyway and just used the best take off tire as my spare but it does illustrate how you always need to factor in some money for the "unknowns" even after your best attempt at due diligence.

    As a seller, I try to "qualify" the buyer first and not just to see if he has the money to write the check. "Have you ever owned one of these?", "How long have you been looking?" "What other old cars have you had?", that sort of conversation to see whether the guy is serious and has an inkling of what is involved in buying a 30 year old car. You can tell a lot from this line of questioning about how realistic he will be following the PPI. This is very important when selling a Ferrari or other exotic because you will get calls from a lot of dreamers or people hoping to get a test drive but have no intention of really buying the car.

    Agreeing to let a buyer do a PPI should not be a big inconvenience for the seller since the buyer pays for it, including transportation to and from. An agreement on price and a deposit should be in hand subject to the satisfactory PPI. As a practical matter, inspecting a car should be a bit like a house inspection: nothing obvious that anyone can see is grounds for backing out of the deal. You can't say "the windshield is cracked, I need $X off the price to replace it." as anyone could see that on inspection themselves. It is the hidden things, like engine condition, unseen accident damage underneath, etc. that matter. Nevertheless, a buyer with cold feet or who has never dealt with buying an old car may well freak out and flake based on what a competent PPI reports. Expect to have to negotiate on some small things, factor that in and decide whether the net price is acceptable.

    Don't expect the seller to tell you every thing that is wrong with the car. The seller may say things that are true, such as "the a/c isn't hooked up" but omit in saying that the heater/defroster fans and the radio don't work. If you don't look and don't ask, those are the types of things that will burn you as the costs can add up very quickly.

    We'll see but it sounds as though a buyer came along willing to buy without a PPI. Whatever problems there may be in this car that we have now heard about, and there may be more, it was a no brainer to have sold it to this guy since a PPI probably would have uncovered some legitimate issues on the car that would affect its value and thus selling price.

    The seller is not looking out for your interest, it is your responsibility to check out the car as much as possible, either by inspecting it personally or hiring someone else to do it for you. The phrase "Caveat emptor" (Let the buyer beware) applies here.

    This one looked nice but I wouldn't cry over missing out on it without knowing what lies underneath the shiny paint and glowing description.
     
  27. DaveO_48

    DaveO_48 Karting

    Jul 29, 2013
    184
    Henderson, Nv
    Full Name:
    David Odland
    I agree, the first purchase is the most stressful. You aren't sure the car isn't a house full of termites. You haven't wrenched on one of them so that is a BIG question mark. Then there is the cost. A Ferrari isn't the cheapest used car on the market. Once you get the deal done and the car home you always find something to fix. If I didn't that would take away part of the fun of it. Hopefully you don't have to ground up restore it but several cars I have bought needed it and others were ground up restored just because I like doing that.
    Sometimes you just have to make your decision on what your heart tells you to do. Not always the best method but it gets the clock started.
    I have purchase new cars that were more trouble than many of my projects because I set the bar very high. If it's used, it will need work.
     
  28. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,208
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Yeah nothing is better than that. You can tell an awful lot about a car based on your first five minutes with it.

    I would certainly encourage anyone buying a complicated car like this to get a PPI- But as a seller I do understand how it's always easier to just do the deal and move on to the next one.
     

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