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720s faster than Pista in Hockenheim GP (sport auto)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by tekaefixe, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

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    #76 Shadowfax, Feb 23, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    I would agree the Pista is not as raw nor does it feel as edgy and alive as a Gt3rs.2 or, Gt2rs. In degrees of having that raw edgy race car feel I would place Gt3rs Ist, Gt2rs second, and Pista 3rd in that order.

    I also seriously question Ferrari's removal of the sound deadening in Pista as on most rd surfaces all they have managed to achieve is drown out the noise of the engine which again largely defeats the entire purpose. This is where the valve controller is essential as at least with the valves pegged open you can hear the engine. Without controller and with the valves closing the car loses a lot of soul (flame suit on). No such problem with the GT cars. Creating a race car feel is an art form requiring the clever manipulation of certain elements. The Germans have created a masterpiece in this area where Ferrari are still playing second fiddle for some crazy reason. Ferrari just need to figure out there is a balance of elements in play and more to it than just pulling the sound deadening out of the car.

    I totally agree Pista is more a road car that can be used on a circuit vs the GTrs cars which feel more like race cars which can be comfortably driven on the road in near equal relativity to the Pista....which clearly feels more of a road car against these two. This is also where I must question even the need for F8 when all Ferrari had to do was put some sound deadening along with a glove-box into Pista and they would have provided a far more enjoyable driving experience for track and rd and the car would have made more sense.
     
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  2. Bendrover

    Bendrover Karting

    Dec 18, 2005
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    dmark1 - You sound like a real winner. Enjoy looking at your Pista.
     
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  3. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #78 Lukeylikey, Feb 23, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    As an owner of a 3RS and Speciale (with P Spider imminent) I totally agree with this. Took RS on a 3k mile road trip with my wife and it was fine. Not like a race car but more like a road/track hybrid - tuned for best compromise between both. Just like S and P.

    And what are we saying about turbo cars? They sure do make less noise than n/a car but last I looked that doesn’t makes them less race-car’ish’ - most key categories are turbo based these days.
     
  4. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 Veteran
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    Why thank you. Glad to see we agree. And by your screen name I can tell you really have a way with the ladies. A veritable Clark Gable.
    Have a nice day.
     
  5. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #80 Lukeylikey, Feb 23, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    The way Porsche and Ferrari do the track specials is not different in my now fairly-experienced-with-both view. The differences between them are more about the brands than their approach to developing a track special. Porsche feels more solid, like all Porsches, Ferrari feels more fast-exotic, like all Ferraris.

    The RS is not noisier, other than the fact it has a n/a engine (Ferrari’s last n/a, the Speciale, is just as noisy), it is stiffer (not its best feature in my book and the best racers are not always stiff either), it has more aero - something acceptable in the Porsche philosophy but not in Ferrari’s. This last point might justify P as being more hardcore but few will be doing the kind of track driving where this is significant. It certainly doesn’t make the Porsche drive more ‘raw’. As said elsewhere, neither car is remotely like a race car.
     
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  6. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    #81 noone1, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
    Ha. I'm pretty sure the only reason you didn't say the same thing about the Pista is because you got one. We all remember how your tune changed about the NFGT after you got denied LOL
     
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  7. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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  8. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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  9. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

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    #84 Shadowfax, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
    Thanks for your observations between your 458 spec and 3rs.2 but let's put things back into proper context and perspective with regard to the topic car/s.

    I thought we were talking about the rawness and race car feel between a Pista and a Gt3rs.2 and/or Gt2rs, NOT a 458 Special vs Gt3rs where no doubt the result from that comparison would be far closer with both having higher NA revving engines with a less sophisticated chassis than their immediate counterparts.

    A 458 Spec chassis is certainly not as sophisticated as a Pista's so there is quite a significant difference in feel of that particular element right there! Then there is the element of the engine where one is NA and the other Turbocharged - so the sound characteristic (sound element) inside the cabin is different again, as is the audibility and harmonics at different RPMs.

    I can understand brand loyalty can get the better of some here but the comparison I drew upon was between 3 cars which I actually own and love equally for what they are.

    It is what it is. Pista has the less raw race car feel between the 3 mentioned. I also completely understand that each brand's equivalent offering goes about business differently to the other but what I am talking about here is the race car feel and the completeness of the raw edgy package which has been sewn into each car.

    With 720s, whilst equally capable as Pista, it also would come off in second place in the areas mentioned. Again, it is what it is. It's not a brand loyalty thing or a case where just because one is as fast or capable as the other that they offer equal driving sensation in the areas mentioned because that is simply not how it is.
     
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  10. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    It’s certainly true that I haven’t had the chance to put my own Pista through its paces yet, though I know two friends well who have both Speciale and Pista. My point is that the key difference between the raw feeling of a Speciale v Pista has to do with the engine rather than Ferrari ‘dumbing down’ on their approach to the Pista. And a car being turbo is no justification for it being further away from a race car. No doubt the Pista is quieter, though not by much. I don’t believe it is any less aggressive to drive compared to Speciale, apart from sound, though. Both my friends give exactly the same report about it; takes a bit of getting used to because of the speed and feel, neither is selling their Speciale....yet. And neither says it is softer in approach than Speciale - in fact the reverse.

    I absolutely love my RS, can’t stop driving it - even for silly errands. I love its looks, its solidity, its feedback and its history. I took it on a 3k mile trip with my friend in his Pista. The Pista is fantastic, looked great, drives great, blisteringly fast. The RS can keep with it more easily than some might imagine for a 500hp car, at least until high speed corners and straights. I love Ferrari, but I love Porsche too. I owned a Mac and have no beef at all with those, like some of my own friends, who prefer Mac. Mine happened to be reliable (though the same friend has had difficulty with his 675 on track days). This is not a point about Mac v Ferrari, this is about Ferrari’s approach with the Pista vis a vis Porsche’s approach with the RS. I just don’t detect any material change in either’s approach save that one brand went turbo. The RS is not as hardcore as some would have us believe in my view. An original Lotus Elise is much more hardcore and uncompromising than today’s RS IMO. For me the 991.2 RS is just about perfect.
     
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  11. GoHardGT3RS

    GoHardGT3RS Rookie

    Jan 1, 2015
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    I have owned and intensively tracked 997.2 GT3RS and 991.1 GT3 RS.

    I currently own a Lotus Exige Cup 430 (Type 25), drive endurance races in the French racing series named Lamera Cup.

    I will get a Pista next week.

    Let me share with you my impressions comparing these different models very soon!

    I love the rawness of the GT3RS and the Exige Cup 430. I hope the Pista will not disappoint me ;-)
     
  12. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

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    #87 Shadowfax, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
    Never said the Pista is "soft", but in comparison to the others it is certainly not as raw or race car in feel. Not saying Pista is bad or not involving as it's still a hugely exciting car to drive but it doesn't feel as alive as the other two which tend to command a bit more attention from the driver to get the same out of it. I think Pista drives like a really great road car where the others have more track intent in the way they drive and feel.

    The road noise intrusion does not work for Pista to the same favor as it does with the other 2 as it takes away from the sound of the engine at times where with the others their engines can always be heard even though one (the gt2) is also turbo. Gt2 is perfect loudness - sounds amazing inside actually. They really did a great job getting the balance of the noise right in that car and I would say even better than gt3rs which can fall a little quiet inside in the low revs. Gt3 comes noisy higher up but in 2rs the noise is always there. The same goes for the engine vibrations where the Pista has a far smoother feel overall like a regular 488 vs the others which allow just enough vibration to come through and be felt by the driver but without becoming obtrusive. 2rs feels like an animal with the mix of vibrations and sound in comparison to both of them.

    As I said, it is the clever manipulation of certain elements and the tuning of those elements which have clearly made the GT cars feel more lively and oriented as race track versions. If Pista didn't have the removal of the sound deadening it could honestly easily be mistaken as an improved 488 - which it is essentially . It's the perfect 488 but without sound deadening and glovebox - F8 also an improved 488 but a dumbed down and overly soft version of Pista and 488 in certain areas which had a bit more crudity to it.

    Re your take on 3rs - I agree it can be easily DD'd and is comfortable enough for long trips. It's a great car - love it as well. Most of my drives are 5 to 600 kms a day over some very demanding routes and not once have I felt uncomfortable in the 3rs. For such a taught chassis it's remarkably compliant. The chassis feels taughter than Pistas and can be a bit jiggier over certain surfaces when travelling a low speeds. The 2rs otoh has a closer matching suspension to Pista in terms of ride and compliance but again feels taughter in the chassis than Pista but not as taught as the 3rs which is quite taught as you know. All have very direct in steering feel as you would expect. So again it is that combination of elements all creating those sensations to the driver that one is behind the wheel of a track oriented car. You don't feel these sensations in the same way in Pista so it doesn't feel quite as alive in that way as being a track car even though it is very capable on circuit. Still incredible though and very exciting to drive. Love it. Much better than a 488 or F8 in every way. Make no mistake there.

    I think for Pista to acquire a a similar track type feel it, it probably needs some dynamic engine mounts and have the engine louder off throttle so it can be heard over the road noise intrusion. I think the valves closing all the time on throttle lift off isn't helpful as when I have the valves open using the Forza controller the engine is more audible and in most ways audible enough over the rd noise. Suspension wise Pista sits very flat and is direct enough in the steering so I put the lack of race car feel mainly down to the lack of vibration from the engine and the engine sound as being the two elements which place it behind the others as having more of a track focused feel to it. Again not taking anything away from Pista as I totally love it but they should have made a better fist out of it in those areas compared to the others. Anyway drive it yourself. You wont be disappointed but Id be very surprised if you found my findings on these 3 incorrect.
     
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  13. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    If you expect the Pista to be as raw, you might feel it lacking. It is not as raw. You can change things up so it gets closer, but definitely less raw feeling than a GT3RS 991.1.

    Stiffer Novi springs, a lower ride height, and maybe a Novi exhaust system with 200 cell cats, and you should be closer.

    But I doubt it will dissapoint. The speed is addictive.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  14. GoHardGT3RS

    GoHardGT3RS Rookie

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    Thanks, interesting!

    I will report soon...
     
  15. Pis7a2020

    Pis7a2020 Karting

    Dec 17, 2019
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    I track a Pista and a 991 GT2RS. Both great cars. However, the GT2RS is very clinical and boring compared to the Pista. I disagree in that the GT2RS feels edgier or more raw in any way. I do however have the carbon race seats in the RS, and they do feel very race car like. Since I’ve had the Pista, the RS just sits in the garage.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  16. Pis7a2020

    Pis7a2020 Karting

    Dec 17, 2019
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    The Pista will not disappoint.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  17. mdrums

    mdrums Karting

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    Sounds like a heck of a garage...awesome!

    I had a 991 GT3 which I tracked. I have been tracking for 14 years all in Porsche. Now I have a 488 and just want to track it a couple times a year but there is zero info on alignment set or ride height...anything on tracking the 488. However just driving no the the 991 GT3 nd the 488 GTB on the street I can tell some difference in handling. I do want to get some Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires on the 488 for better grip in corners and especially in acceleration traction.

    Is there anything you did with your Pista to get it track ready? How is the wear looking on the tires? If wear is good and no outside tread chunking that’s MPSC2 will do...do you know Pista alignment specs?

    thanks much!
     
  18. I've tracked the Pista once so far. Kept everything stock. Just like I did with the GT3 and 3RS.

    I never felt like there is a need to second guess or try to outsmart the boys and girls at Maranello or Stuttgart, respectively.
     
  19. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

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    boring and clinical? Lol. Im calling BS. Lets see a pic of your two cars ( pista and gt2rs together). Pista is a great car for sure but saying a gt2 boring and clinical is not even remotely believable and brings your driving skills into serious question.
    I can also say in so far as track cars go the pista hoes through brakes big time.
     
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  20. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

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    #95 Shadowfax, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
    It will certainly disappoint in the interior sound off throttle or, on mild throttle where the boost is not enough for the sensors to open those exhaust valves up. Very ordinary indeed!

    As a general rule I'd agree with you wholeheartedly but with things like overly large wheel gaps and overly quiet interior engine noise levels in their so called track spec cars I am becoming forced into rethinking that position. So with this in mind one needs to put the coolaid down, take in a few deep breaths and prepare themselves to pull their wallet back out. Thankfully some of these things can be fixed up but I foresee some far more serious unfixable problems with F8 and the later models coming out.
     
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  21. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

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    ??? people had physical cars of their 720s before the pista was even debuted at Geneva!!!
     
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  22. mdrums

    mdrums Karting

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    Only thing I did with my 991 GT3 was increase camber to -2 degrees front and rear. This gave better tire traction and wear. Others that are serious tack guys that have shops like GMG, BBi, Orbit, Champion, Autoquest etc work on there GT cars will lower them slightly and Conor balance and change the rake slightly. Manthey really dives hard into this and they are the kings of tuning a Porsche GT car for track fun. Seems like nobody is like this with Ferrari.
     
  23. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

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    So? The "VS" version of the 650S was the 675LT. So it stands to reason that the 650S VS and the 488 VS is the competing cars. The F8 was a reponse to the 720, which was a response to the 488. They leap frog each other so it has little to do with actual years, but more to do with generations. It is what it is.
     
  24. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

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    my response was in relation to:
    "The Pista debuted two years ago, snd at thst time Mclaren had nothing that came close."

    at the time mclaren had a car that came close in terms of performance and that car was the 720s which had been around for awhile.

    i'm not looking at what people perceive to be competing cars or responses or brackets or generational stuff, just simply refuting that Mclaren had 'nothing that came close' in terms of performance at the time the Pista debuted.
     
  25. Yeah, I don't disagree Mike.

    But with Manthey, it's really a whole makeover of the car, which is why there is a "GT2 RS MR".

    As to tuner shops, I live right by both GMB and BBi, and I've never really drank their Kool-Aid in terms of trying to fine tune a Porsche GT car. I suppose minor tweaks like camber to suit either your personal driving style or the track layout is one thing, but lowering the car, suspension "upgrades" etc., I think do has much harm as they might help.
     
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