Hello All, Does anyone know the difference between the 2 engines? One is 660HP and one is 730HP, but it seems as the engine is "shared" between the two. Why the difference in HP, if they are the same engine? Thanks -Charlie
The engine is the same type and displacement, but the engin on the FF is specific because of the power coming out from the back AND the front (for the 2nd gearbox and 4wheel drive system). On the F12, the engine is less complicated, but the compression is higher and there are some resonator added. I don't know much else about these fantastic engine and I regret it... If someone here has more technical infos about these engines of the year, help us
There is a much deeper technical comparison out there, but the two engines are essentially the same. I had a chance to talk this over with a couple of the FNA tech folks at a recent event. On the FF, the PTU and associated "plumbing" is added to the front of the crank, on the F12 obviously it's not there. The F12 has different intake (note the resonators), compression and exhaust, and there is a distinct difference in the engine maps.
Thanks guys. If someone (TAZ) knows the reason behind the huge HP difference, I'd love the education... It cant be just the engine tune (Novitec ECU will bump FF to 692HP). Some loss of power for the front wheels is understandable... I guess I'm wondering if this is the same engine, why can't the FF get close to the 740HP (with some loss to front wheels)?
the engine hp/torque figures are dyno-based, so drivetrain losses are not factored and I haven't seen any rear-wheel (or, all-wheel) dyno comparisons though I'm sure they exist. FF would obviously lose more than F12 given drivetrain losses. HP and torque differences are very likely driven by different intake/exhaust, higher compression levels, and the maps, assuming the basics of the engine (design, bore/stroke, valve train, et al) are similar. I continue to learn and appreciate the effect of resonance in shaping a hp/torque curve, and the impact of advance, etc etc. One other factor is that Ferrari "by design" probably held back on the FF engine potential to make sure the flagship F12 had much bigger numbers; 360 vs. 360CS, 430 vs. Scud....or Chevy Silverado vs. Corvette, Dodge Ram V10 vs. Viper.... I would love to also hear someone with deep specific knowledge of the differences
The F12 engine red lines at 8500 vs. 8000 for the FF, giving more horsepower. A combination of tweaks allows for the higher revs.
Doesn't the FF system not engage all the time and only if its deemed necessary? It seems likely to me the drivetrain loss of the FF AWD system is quite a bit lower than with a traditional AWD system........
the FF "PTU" (Power Transfer Unit) is actually a completely separate gearbox that hangs off the front of the engine. there is some parasitic loss all the time, but you are correct, the clutches only add torque based on demand if you want more technical specs, google "Ferrari 4RM" (which is the official name for the system). Personally, this level of technology (and its performance) really turned me on to how impressive this car is.
The reasons for the hp increase from ~650 for the FF to ~730 for the F12 are several, even though bore and stroke (and thus displacement) are identical at 94.0 mm and 75.2 mm. First, the F12 has higher compression pistons at 13.5:1 vs the FF's 12.3:1. Second, the F12 has wilder timing on the camshafts, allowing max hp at higher peak rpm, 8250, vs 8000 for the FF, and a higher redline, 8700 rpm vs 8250 rpm. In general, the higher the rpm, the more hp for an engine tuned to run at the higher speed. Third, the F12 engine has higher flow intake and exhaust manifolding than the FF engine. Fourth, the induction resonance system on the intake plenum allows for a slight overpressure on the intake valves, sort of like free supercharging at very low boost. Fifth, the Motronic injection/ignition system provides more fuel and ignition advance to provide more peak hp. Probably missed something, but those are the primary reasons the F12 engine is some 80 hp more powerful than the FF engine. Note both engines provide equivalent torque, 504 lb-ft for the FF and 509 lb-ft for the F12, at the same 6000 revs, because the F12 tuning is biased towards peak hp.
Actually 8,250 for the FF although in first gear you need to REALLY anticipate that limit since the rpm is rising so quickly, second is almost as bad. This thing really goes. F12 might be 800 lbs lighter, with a little more HP it should really really go. Rick
Terrys explanation is correct. There's a lot more involved than just a tune. They are virtually two different engines based on the same crank and block. While I haven't seen the parts manual, I'm guessing that converting the FF engine to an F12 engine will take a lot of new parts, including complete new heads, new pistons with con rods, complete intake, ECU of course and various other bits i.e big money for a somewhat slight gain. It may even be cheaper to buy a new F12 engine, bolt that up to the FF driveline and sell the FF engine. Also when discussing whether or not the 4RM system has anything to do with the lower power output due to parasitic loss etc. - it hasn't. The power Ferrari spec is not the power delivered to the wheels i.e the transmissions and driveline of the FF is not part of the equation. The rated power is what the engines put out at their flywheels. As far as I can remember, the front wheels aren't even engaged in Race mode and beyond. So driveline parasitic loss in the most aggressive settings should be close to identical for the FF and F12.
