Well after all the backstory the Red manual 575 has dissappeared from CC and my watch list. Shame, I thought we were going to get a feel for the market with that going to market.
That seems a bit odd. I was interested to see what the description would say. Presumably they had paid for the photos to be taken. I guess that either the owner decided not to sell or it got sold pre-auction.
If it sold via the CC pre listing, CC would happily show it on the SOLD section. It could have sold beforehand or there's a third alternative. CC have a team of people of which part of their job is to keep an eye on forums discussing their listings and their MO. They don't like negative press and they are very pro active in addressing anything negative. Your backstory might have been enough for them to decide not to list. I wouldn't be surprised to now see that car appear at a traditional auction like SIlverstone.
Yes, no doubt. I think you overrate my influence! There wasn't really much backstory. Just some questions that might reasonably be answered in the auction description. Haha!
Yeah I probably could have explained that better. I was wondering if the car had been presented as a low mile very attractive offering rare manual 575 without the complete picture being revealed. Or more accurately, lack of picture. I know this particular forum is one of those that has a beady eye kept on it. So with the public statement from a reliable source - you, that the car apparently hasn't moved for the last X number of years and hasn't been MOT'd that it may be detrimental to it's potential sale price. It was listed a "managed sale" which is my pet peeve on this kind of site. Maybe the manging agent wasn't completely aware of the backstory and decided not to proceed. Still it could be any number of reasons it never made it to sale.
That is really quite optimistic, though as an owner I would like it to be true, I think there’s a no=sale there. Maybe the premium is for the number plate. I’d pay at least a couple of pounds for V12 FHP.
Anyone else noticed that the UK 575 and 550 seem to be holding prices much higher than the US? Or perhaps I am just looking in the wrong places. BAT has a superamerica for less than silverstones 575.
The market here in the UK is in a form of stasis. There is very little coming to market meaning the cars that are on market (many of which have been for sale for a long time) are at somewhat inflated prices. Anything that comes to market priced reasonably sells almost instantly or even before it reaches market. Only when we're fully out of lockdown and the reality of what we've been going through unfolds fully will we have some sort of grasp of reality. With interest rates so low and the stock market so volatile, alternative assets are looking increasingly attractive. So for petrol heads that have cash to put somewhere, modern classic Ferrari's actually seem like a sensible choice. A safe place for some cash that you can actually enjoy.
I think manual 575s have always held strong in the US. In the UK and Europe they overshot in 2016-17, went down, and have firmed up a bit in the last year without taking off.
Darius- At one point, there was no price differential between F1 and 3 pedal 575Ms in the US. That changed, obviously.
This gated UK RHD 575, FHP, 14k miles, previously noted, is up for auction tomorrow. It’s an ambitious estimate at 175-200k GBP and I expect it not to meet reserve, but let’s see. I think the current market price for this car from a dealer with a warranty and all the coddling is 150-160k so 140-150k after fees at auction, meaning something like 130-135k before fees. (Note, all these numbers are GBP.) That assumes all is perfect and no remedial works required, which I don’t know with this car. Colour combo is nice but certainly not one of the most desirable for collectors. https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/sa073-lot-245-2004-ferrari-575m-manual-fiorano-handling-pack?el=12718&pn=1&pp=100
£164,000 plus commission which I think is 15% all in - £188,600. I watched the bidding on this and it was reluctant, they even dropped to £1000 increments to get it closer to lower estimate. I think was clever use of a high estimate spread to get the bidding to open at £145K. So if you want a manual 575 to actually drive, converting an F1 is now an absolute no brainer if this sale is indicative of real world values.
£188,600 wow, that is one powerful price! The manual 575 market has ticked up sharply. Either that, Or it’s a one off. That’s $260k which I guess is what a similar car would fetch in the US. I know a board member who sold a similar gated 575, also FHP, similar mileage, better colour combo, in the UK for £125k in 2018. So this is some rebound. At this rate I may be tempted to sell mine and buy an 812 for very little difference. Though the 812 is only headed one way right now.
Alan, polite question, you want a manual 575 to actually drive, as you have stated (an excellent aim I may add)..if it’s a no brainer to do the above, why are you not leading the charge?
Simply, the right car hasn't yet presented itself. The last one I made an offer on was the TDF 575 that had questionable history and lots of missing records. Effectively a perfect candidate for a transmission swap - I was told it was sold into the trade. 550 asking prices are on the up. Slades currently have 6 Maranello's on offer, 3 x 550's 3 x 575's. The presentation of the 2 F1 575's is apalling. The Giallo ex Rod Stewart manual car has been for sale for the best part of a decade now I think. Asking prices are way too strong at present. Example:- https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1321685 I do like the two following cars:- This is tidy, but by the time I've done a transmisson swap I'm at north of £100k. So may as well buy a 550. Right now I don't value driver mile 550's at £100K. https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1250857 This is the third time this 575 has been offered by Bell, each time the asking price has dropped £10K. On it's original clutch and is a non FHP car. That would work but it needs to be in the £60k's. Presently no one seems to be entertaining offers, so the cars sit unsold. https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11349256?cId=10694248&cId=10703787&cId=11060308&cId=11429489&cId=10626126&cId=11288492&cId=7187138&cId=7514148&cId=11268724&cId=10578519&cId=11349256&cId=10646304&cId=11342099&cId=10417673&cId=8598120&cId=11074134&cId=9602725 Plus we've had the conversation already about not actually being able to go anywhere in them at present. My SL gets used for grocery shopping once a week and that's it. Caused mainly as my wife is disabled and I'm still effectively shielding at home (although we've now both had our first vaccine shot). I've run my business from home for the last 10 years, so right now there's not a great deal I could do with one anyhow. That will change, I'm interested to see what happens to the country after Furlough and Govt support ends. Last year whilst we were still locked down I invested my car fund in EUA (the day they came out of suspension), a bit of a punt I know, but there was a very nice RNS after hours on Friday. Lets see what happens next week. I may be shopping at a slightly higher level if things pan out as we hope.
Thank you, very thorough and understandable response. You are also right about having nowhere to go, I barely drove my 575 in the last 12 months. Hopefully that will change. if you do go for one, I am sure you will love it.
I've driven four 575M's, I know I'd love one. 3 F1's and a manual. The manual was like driving a different car altogether, it was so much nicer to drive. It was once I drove the manual 575 that I started considering 550's. I'd actually always wanted a 575. I've never driven a 550 though.
I have to say I'm not entirely convinced by this F1 vs Manual thing. I don't think I'm alone in saying that after you've driven a 550 for a bit (and I assume it is the same with the 575), most of the time you're not changing gear at all because it will do pretty much everything you want in fourth gear. Although I haven't driven an F1 transmission car, I do know they take a little bit of getting used to and that needs to be taken into account too.
I test drove three F1 575's. All three drove entirely different, one was appalling, no matter how smooth I tried to shift gears it lurched terribly. It clearly had an issue or the clutch was at the end of it's life. The second car I drove had a new clutch 4000 miles previously, the difference was astonishing, it was also a later model year and I learned later has more up to date ECU's for both gearshift and suspension. It was a non FHP car but didn't feel like it needed any further enhancements at all. Car three was very similar to car 1, but not quite as lurchy - plus it had other issues that hadn't been highlighted in the add, so it was just a non starter. I made an offer on car two - which was turned down, in 2018. It's still for sale here:- https://overbrookgarage.co.uk/en/hyper-cars-for-sale/2004-ferrari-575m-f1/ I drove it when it was for sale at Meriden Modena, it then went to Macari in London for a while. After that it went across the block at Anglia Car Auctions where it was a no sale with a high bid of £59,000 (June 2020 sale). Here's the walkaround video of it still on You Tube:- I then drove a Manual 575 that was for sale at Furlonger, 58K mile car with a lot of history. They wanted £130K for it back then. It was at that point it just made more sense for me to look for a 550, after all they're all manual. When you're moving, the reality is there's not a great deal of difference, in fact you can then argue the F1 is actually quicker than a manual. It's when you're not moving that the problems started to mount up for me. Start stop traffic, junctions, lights, creeping in traffic, 3 point turns and reversing with a truck like beeping constantly going on. Trying to reverse into a parking space with that bleeping going on! Daily things that are normal in a manual car or modern automatic were just a faff in the F1. It just wasn't something I wanted to live with and would likely stop me using the car. Where I live I have to deal with a lot of stop start and lights and junctions for quite some time before I get to sweeping open countryside. Everything was normal and intuitive in the Manual in a way that it just wasn't in an F1. Sure I might get used to it. After three attempts though I didn't really want to get used to it. I suggest you drive an F1 equipped car, just to experience it, then you'll understand the hankering for the third pedal and a stick.
It takes a while to learn to drive an F1 Ferrari smoothly, like Jonathan said. A quick test drive or two is not going to do it. Driving in stop and go traffic is actually very easy if you coast in neutral most of the time. The reverse beeps are not all that loud and do not bother a regular driver. I guess 13 years of driving one teaches you how to do it. The V12 torque makes F1 very simple once you understand the system. Well maintained, they are relatively trouble free. Many F1 systems are not well-maintained.
Thanks Alan and Taz. Most interesting. Car 2, that you mention, I know/knew well since it was regular at many of the meets I arranged when I ran the local FOC group.
There are zero gated 575s on offer in the UK at the moment (discounting the yellow Rod Stewart one at Slades which doesn’t count). I don’t think I have ever seen that scenario in seven years of looking at these cars. posts 1 though 3 of this thread address a topic raised in the parallel Disappearing thread in case anyone is interested.
IMHO the manual 6-speed 575 are currently overrated. A 575 is marginally better than a 550, but actually part of the betterness is the F1 system - the 575 was designed as an improved 550, and the F1 system was part of the improvement (the F1 system on the 575, while maybe not as good as on the 599, is miles away from the "draft" F1 introduced on the 355). One has just to keep in mind, while operating the F1 system, that it is by no means an automatic gearbox, it's a robotised manual... So for me, if one wants the improved 575, it has to be considered as a whole, with all the advances (including the F1); if one is happier with a more original (i.e. initial) set-up, then the choice should be for the 550.
