550 Water pump impeller | FerrariChat

550 Water pump impeller

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by AVIMAX, Jan 9, 2020.

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  1. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Doing a belt service during the winter and also upgrading my radiator shroud and fans to 575 spec to help with running a bit hot in stop and go traffic on very hot days. Looks like my water pump impeller needs to be replaced (pump will be rebuilt), leading edges of vanes slowly being eaten away. I can’t find any images online showing a new impeller, can anyone confirm this is not how a new one looks? Pump is original, 44,000 miles. Also once I pulled the radiator out, it was not as clean as I thought. Lots of debris trapped between the radiator and AC exchanger.

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  2. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Ryan, it looks like you have the "new" style 550/575 impeller because it has 8 vanes, whereas the old style has only 7 vanes. The new style does sit "higher" than the old, and needs to be trimmed down in order for the pump to spin freely. Just for confirmation does your impeller have the 8 holes drilled in its lower surface, as shown in the attached photo below?

    From memory, I don't think your impeller is that worn vs a new one. The wear I would expect to see would be on the top surface, and I don't see any at all. It would show up as rough surfaces on top of all the vanes, but yours are still shiny.

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  3. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Hi John, yes it has the holes, it the newer style impeller which is how it came from the factory, engine # 60158. The top is not worn at all, but I wonder about the upper corners of the vanes, I would expect them to be square and sharp, mine are rounded and rough. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

  5. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    You’re right looks very similar. So I guess just a new bearing and seal. Thanks.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Worn corners....no extra charge.
     
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  7. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,665
    Oslo
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    Erik
    I bought a new waterpump from Superformance in 2014 and I wonder if I can install a smaller belt pulley on that pump and how do I do it? And which one should I buy? I recall it was an «updated» version. Thanks
     
  8. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    I used to take for granted that wp rebuilders would do their job correctly. For some time now I have checked the clearance of impeller to work body installed. That all started when I had a well known water pump builder give me a pump just barely out of spec. I installed and by accident barely felt impeller rub. So now I make sure every pump is clearanced. I heard of one new 355/550 pump newly installed where impeller sheared off weakened by those factory small holes. The reason might have been rubbing on the wp body.
     
  10. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    You definitely have to be careful. I purchased a replacement pump because I was being lazy and figured why rebuild. I sent the replacement unit back because the impeller was not in the right position. The WSM for both 550 and 575 show a 3.4mm gap between the bearing housing and the impeller which if the impeller is correct should result in a 0.17mm - 0.89mm clearance between the impeller and the water pump body. The pump I received did not have a 3.4mm gap, it had 0mm between the bearing housing and the impeller. Resting both new and old pumps on a flat surface impeller down, the mounting flange of my original pump was at least 3 mm higher off the table than the new pump, so the clearance inside would have been closer to 4mm, not 1mm, which I'm sure decreases the effectiveness of the pump. Question is, what locates the impeller at the correct height off the bearing housing? Doesn't the impeller rest on a shoulder on the bearing shaft?

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  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    #11 Rifledriver, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    If they are using the correct bearing that can't happen. If they are using the Chinese bearings that are out there they just saved you from breaking down somewhere.

    I am at a loss why you would take that for granted. I have been in the car business 46 years?? and rebuilt waterpumps were a joke in the industry back then. It has never changed. I know a guy who was nearly killed by a rebuilt pump. They are not worth scrap metal prices.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Yes it does. If that space isn't correct an incorrect bearing is the reason. Commercial rebuilders select parts based on cost. If you want quality use the correct parts and there really isn't any quality option for the bearing but the OE part.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Why would you want to change the ratio?
     
  14. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner


    For real? We don't sell used parts at Ricambi America.

    I have 1x new impeller in stock.
     
  15. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Daniel, I'm sorry that is not what I meant at all. I mean that maybe the photo is of a used part since the edges looked like my worn part, I did not mean to imply in any way that you would ever sell a used part. My sincerest apologies.
     
  16. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    Erik
    To make the coolant circulate faster. The later models of that engine have smaller pulleys. It needs better cooling!
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Brian Crall
    People keep saying that. I have worked my entire career in very hot climates in a couple of the biggest dealers Ferrari had and have never seen a 550, 575, 456 or 456M with a cooling issue. You guys need to go back to the fundamentals and fix what is wrong and quit making modifications to a car with no design issues.
     
  18. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3

    Brian maybe when you were at the Ferrari dealers, these 456/550 models were still too new to have developed these issues? Poor coolant maintenance is probably a lot of the problem since Ferrari didn't issue any specific recommendations.

    But it does seem strange that 456/550's in Europe, UK, Finland as well as the USA seem to have these overheating problems, so it's not just us dumb American owners who aren't doing the right thing with these cars.

    However, I've never heard or read about 575 owners with these problems. But they do have much better fan shrouds, possibly better fans, better impellers in their pumps and their pumps move 10% more coolant than the 456/550's.
     
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  19. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    As far as I can tell, my 2001 550 has the same impeller as the 575 and the same radiator as the 575. The only difference seems to be the fan shroud and fans. My car doesn’t overheat, no problems running on the track in 30C weather, no problem on the highway or around town, the only issue is on very hot sunny days, 30C+, sitting in stop and go traffic, the temp rises to about 225F or so, it cools back down to 190F as soon as I can get moving, even slowly, say about 50km/h. The temperature has never gone into the red, but it makes for a worrying time when stuck in traffic. So there seems to be a bit of a lack of airflow through the radiator when my car is stopped. My fans are 19 years old, so probably not performing at peak strength anymore. As John said, many 550 owners seem to be complaining of running hot/overheating but no 575 owners. I’m rebuilding the water pump because of slight play in the bearing, and putting in new fans. Just seems a no brainer to use a 575 shroud while I’m in there.
     
  20. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    #20 F456M, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
    You are both spot on the problem John and Ryan. The thing is that when really stuck in traffic, the engine room is like a heat pump, it just get warmer and warmer the longer you stay there.... I also suspect those fans to be faster worn than on other cars because they run most of the time when driving slowly, much more than on most other cars. A twenty year old 550 fan with 100.000 miles har probably run 3-4 x the normal life of a fan in another car.

    The temps in south of Europe is normally between 32 and 38 degrees which is up to 100 Fahrenheit during summers. I went from Oslo to Italy with my Chevrolet Avalanche last summer to pick up a boat. When we went up through Germany, the outside temp was 46 / 115 degrees! I sat outside Düsseldorf airport with my dog inside waiting for a friend for four houres which came three houres too late because of delays getting the luggage out of the plane due to the extreme heat in an environment reportedly at around 60 degrees / 140 degrees outside the planes at the airport! The windows in my car were so warm you could not touch them, and I had to rev the engine to 1.600 rpm for houres to make the fan go fast enough to cool the AC condenser enough to keep the inside temp at under 30 degrees even with full fan and AC on. The Chevy has a big water pump mounted fan which goes on at high temps and heavy pulling. That fan ran constantly! With that kind of extraordinary heat which happens some years, the 550 wouldn’t even got a chance! That is why I want to do all kinds of modifications and still be able to continue the journey and not get stranded along the road. I don’t drive my cars just around my home town.

    Another modification that would make everything a little better is to increase the coolant volume so that it takes a longer time for this overheating thing occurs. A bigger reservoire of cold water would probably help to minimize the problem. Then one could even add a second cooler. But where...?
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  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    I am still working on them and they still are not over heating. Both of my shops and two of the dealers were in areas where 100+ degrees in the summer were common. Summer traffic jams were a problem too. Not only that I am in almost constant contact with good Ferrari mechanics at dealers and independent shops all over North America and several factory technical people.

    Those cars have no heating problem. I have no doubt some owners are having over heating problems just like some have running issues and some are having CEL problems or flat tires or you name it but it isn't a design issue with the car.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    You must be right. We have no traffic jams in 110 degree heat in California or Texas.
     
  23. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    You are having a good day ?
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Mine is great. Sorry to hear so many are bound and determined to be on the struggle bus and reject help.
     
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  25. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    You know I think the 550's coolant gauge design causes panic. If memory serves, normal temp per the WSM is 197 +/- 5, so just past the mid point, and max temp is 239. My car normally down to about 150 on the highway, and maybe 1 needle width past 190 in slow but moving traffic in typical Toronto summer weather. In extreme heat and stuck in traffic, the coolant temp will top out around 225 (needle where I've drawn it below). I've never had the needle reach the last line before the red zone. The 550 coolant temp gauge shows 190 at the mid point, and 260 at the max, there is a line at 237 (2/3 between 190 and 260), and the red zone which is hard to see starts somewhere around 250. When driving, if you see the gauge climb to 225 you get worried, even if it doesn't go any further because it's almost at the last line before the danger zone. If you look at a 575 coolant temp gauge, 210 is the mid point and 280 the max, so if the car is running a bit hot at say 225 because you're stuck in traffic on a really hot day, the needle isn't too far from the middle, so it's less alarming. I'm not suggesting our cars should be running regularly at 225, just that the 550 gauge is less forgiving than the 575 gauge and therefore maybe some 575 drivers are experiencing the same running temps as 550 drivers but aren't panicking as much because the gauge looks normal. Just a thought.

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