512TR AC Freon replacement question

So you have a 512 TR that's worth over 200K. What's thirty bucks for a can of REAL R-12 off of ebay? Why even use Freeze-12, there's still lots of the single cans of R-12 selling on ebay. I bought 19 pounds a year or two ago, and it works great.

 

when you repalced so many things you may also use R134A
I also use this in my TR and my BB and have no problems

 

Years ago I did a lot of research on the subject. I was getting pretty close to selecting a substitute, or just do the changeover the automakers have done and use HCFC 134A to replace the CFC 12. I went so far as to call some ASHRAE (American Society of Heating Refrigeration Air-conditioning Engineers) instructors who teach the classes on refrigerants and substitutes.

My calls pretty much all came down to:

"You're putting this refrigerant in a Ferrari AC system ?"
"How much refrigerant does it hold ?"
"No one will put in CFC R-12 ?"
"Why do you want to switch ?"

With the final response being, "I wouldn't put anything but R-12 in my Ferrari if that was originally used until there was no more left on the planet." He did offer some good techno support for his conclusion based on oil compatibility, system operating pressures, specific heat capacity etc.

 

2Dinos-good post bringing up valid points. I got my air conditioning certification in the eighties, and after owning a repair shop specialising in fun cars like we own, I've seen the changes in refrigerants, rules etc. First off, R-12 cools better in the cars designed for it. You can do a retrofit to R-134, but if your car's AC is marginal ( 308- 328) what's the point? If you want to spend the money, you can still get R-12. Certainly it's more money than R-134, but unless you change your hoses, R-134's gonna leak out faster. And the point is, with a couple of pounds of refrigerant, if it's 30 bucks a pound, who cares. Spend the money, enjoy your AC. Now this is VALID if your system is leak free, obviously.

I'm going through TWO 328's right now, and am going to change the AC hoses to R134 hoses. BUT I'm STILL going to use R-12 until I run out of the stuff, and can no longer buy it. THEN I'll flush the system and go to R134 and the PAG oil, and probably NOT want to drive the cars when it's sunny and in the 90's.

 

As stated above, keep R-12 as long as you can.

 

Such an nice 512TR Jimbo, can appreciate the rear conversion too ....

But why the M emblem ?? It's like a 430 wearing SCUDERIA emblem to me ... (sorry !! )

 

in europe since 2000 ( or may be 2002?? ) it is not longer allowed to sell R 12

 

Look into a hydrocarbon gas replacement. Hi Chill is one brand that is an extremely good replacement for both R12 and 134 gases. It is environmentally friendly and the thermal energy transfer far exceeds older gases.

 

I'd buy a supply of Freeze 12 if that's what you've been using and are happy with. If it's 18 bucks a can spend a hundred bucks and you should be covered for years. When the supply is gone, R-134 is an alternative, but you should replace the hoses. But even if you don't replace the hoses, and you lose your charge every couple of years, so what.

I assume you perhaps have the tools to evacuate and recharge your system? A vacuum pump and gauge set and an accurate scale if using big containers, and you're set for life.
It's SO EASY to evacuate and recharge an AC system. MOST of the times when I have a car with marginal air, I empty out the system and evacuate the system for around an hour. The vacuum practically fills up the system, when you start charging, and running the car for just a minute or two will draw in the rest of the charge. I use the 30 pound jugs, and just have it sitting on an accurate scale, to determine when I've installed the right amount according to the car. Other than the evacuate time, the actual labor is less than five or ten minutes.

In America they outlawed MANUFACTURING R-12, but the remaining cans that have been sitting in garages and shelves for years, have been available at increasing prices since the nineties. When I saw the writing on the wall, I bought FIVE 30 pound jugs of R-12 at Costco. Smart move buying them- stupid move selling them at a 200 or 300% profit a few years later. Should have taken a more LONG term view! Now I have four Ferraris that all use R-12!

 

Looking good.

Other than the engine,diff, rear roll bar, starting wire harness, and titanium connecting rods....that's the only 512M piece I can understand.

I have always loved the 4 round tail lamp design from Ferrari. The current single lamp deviation I still don't like. 4 round lights on the back of a 488 Italia would be the perfect car.

 

Has anyone know of any retro-fit kits to upgrade the AC system?

M BBi has a leak somewhere and is dropping refrigerant and i was thinking it makes sense to just reinstall a whole new kit.

Appreciate any help in advance!

 

IIRC the 'retrofit kit' is just replacing the O rings in the lines, evacuating the system and replacing with the new refrigerant. Nothing magical and any competent AC shop should have a large assortment of O rings as they do this every day. They will also place a little tinfoil sticker next to the AC fill port to let future mechanics know what type of refrigerant is in the system.

 

We hunted down a leak in a hose and tightened down the clamp hopefully that's the end of the hot boxer. Thanks for your help.

 

Hi Jimbo, any hints on replacing the expansion valve? I need to find it on the car!
I think mine is bad. Also, what are you using now for freon? You did a major last year correct? PS , old friend of Clyde Romero who I think you know from Atlanta. I’m from G,ville originally.

 

Btw 1993 512tr.

 

Interesting discussion:

"Refrigerants were jointly invented in 1926 by Albert Einstein and his former student Leó Szilárd, who patented it in the U.S. on November 11, 1930 (U.S. Patent 1,781,541). The three working fluids in this design are water, ammonia, and butane."

"Thomas Midgley was chosen by Kettering to head the research into the new refrigerants. In 1928, Midgley and Kettering invented a "miracle compound" called Freon. Frigidaire received the first patent, US#1,886,339, for the formula for CFCs on December 31, 1928. In 1930, General Motors and DuPont formed the Kinetic Chemical Company to produce Freon."

I believe the revolution in refrigerants came about due to toxicity and flammability. What little obscure refrigerant property is being overlooked if substituted?

There's an enormous amount of engineering that goes into a refrigeration system. If it wasn't a Ferrari, maybe I'd experiment, but like the engines, when dialed in as the genius engineers intended before the first casting was poured or the first piece of sheet metal was formed, they work very-very well. I'll stay w R-12.

 

Just curious what makes you think your expansion valve has failed? What are the cars symptoms?

Jump forward seven years from this threads last posts, and R-12 IS getting more difficult to find. There's probably still thousands of cans lurking on shelves in the back of garages. I've got a friend who SAYS he has five 30 pound jugs buried in his barn. The mother load of real freon. I'm going to keep bugging him to go look, and if I can score thirty pounds- I'm good forever since I don't work on customer cars anymore.

I worry about the r-12 substitutes. Using propane or some other flammable gas as the base is NUTS in a car. It think I would go to R-134 before using some mystery refrigerant. I have sixty pounds of R-134 which works in most of my newer cars. From the looks of things it looks like it's going the way of R-12. Glad I stocked up. Other people may consider this. It IS so much easier to use 30 pound jugs. Still kicking myself for selling too many 30 pound jugs of R-12 back in the nineties. Should have hung on to TWO. Having six R-12 using Ferraris just didn't seem to be in my future 25 years ago!

 

I hear you Turbo Joe on availability. in the USA, we can't get Ate Blue brake fluid. It was a great product to simplify flushing and had very good performance.

 

Thank you Jim for the advice. I am going to give it a try. Removing the dash is not something I want to do. If I DO have to remove the dash, does anyone know if the steering column has to be fully removed? Most pictures of dash removal seem to show the entire column is out. Is this necessary?