512BB, how is it to own?

Out of the above choices its the only one going up in value. Its unique, the last of the hand made bodies (daytona being the second last), first flat-12 roadcar and way underpriced. Awesome sound, great torque and its the only car out of 50+ that I have owned that still has the same intoxicating effect it had on me the day I picked it up 5 years ago.

 

i am into my 9th year of boxer ownership and would tell you it is the only car on your list that will be and remain a cornerstone ferrari for any collection. it is an 80's icon that happens to be even sexier today than it was when new. the contrast between what is in the market today and a boxer is laughable. the boxer being so low, wide, wedged and built in low production numbers screams exotica. todays ferraris seem so mitsubishi-ish and have been made in extraordinary production numbers.

i don't think the boxer is as easy to live with as the others you have on your prospect list and boxers are also a good bit more expensive than the others as well. that said, i have found the boxer to be an occassion car that when that time to drive comes...it is the rare car that leaves me smiling and with weak knees. a really special machine and really the last of the breed.

one last point on performance: while on a run with my friend (he driving his 996 tt) we had a few 4th gear roll on races. the boxer was surprisingly fast from 4th and essentially only lost 1 car length to an x-50 tt!! i don't know who was more shocked ...him or me?

best,

 

Boxers are great. I disagree with Newman that they are the only ones going up in value, but that is also down to your locale (for instance: 550's are going up in the UK). None of the cars mentioned is really going down anymore. And maintenance cost is another thing - Boxers go up (slowly) but they cost quite a bit of money to maintain. A good vetro 308 might be a better car from an investment return POV.

The one thing I want to stress, having driven all of the cars that you mention, is that they could not be different to drive. ALL OF THEM are a unique driving experience! So I really recommend that you try them out before you decide. Just as an example - I drove all 3 Boxer variants on 1 day, and even those are very different to drive! The 365 is more cammy, the 512BB is more torquey, and the BBi is smoother and lighter to drive and easier to keep running the way it should. All have their own charm. For me it's the 365 that is the most fun, for Newman it's the BBi.

It's a lot down to what you want from your Ferrari. What do you use it for? My 550 is fantastic - bomb proof, great looking, and perfect for long weekends crossing Europe. And fast - plenty fast. The Boxer is more of a day-trip kind of car, although I have taken it across Europe too. You arrive broken but satisfied.... Intoxicating noise - wonderful noise. Did I mention it's got great noise??? It's a beast but with a '70ies charm. They are heavy to park and the clutch is heavy too, the thing is a bloody greenhouse as well, aircon hardly does anything (BBi's is better), they smell of petrol, in short - they are perfect!

When it comes to the 8 cylinders, I love the 'chuckability' of those, they are much more lively and direct. The 308 is the most organic of them, the 355 has otherwordly V8 noise and quite a bit of pace. The 328 sits a bit inbetween (more 308 than 355 of course).

If you're serious about a Boxer then I think you should take into account that of all the models here they need the most commitment. But if you stay on top of them they are very, very rewarding. Great cars.

So - go out and find out which car is for you. Good luck and enjoy the hunt!


Onno

 

Going strictly by market reports I read that stated the only ferrari from the 80's era that went up in value was the boxer (by 10%), 308 static etc...Tr static and so on. I assumed the 550 was still going down although its a great car I debated getting one in the past. I may still. The problem with comparing 3 boxers even of the same model would be the state of tune regardless of what someone says. Also, 365's came with several different final drive ratios making them different from each other even in the same tune vs the 512's all being the same. As an example, i drove a 79 308GTB a few weeks ago, felt very different from another one I drove a month before and then of course mine felt different too (the fastest of the bunch ). Cant really lose with any of the versions from a thrill standpoint but the lack of parts availability of the 365 particularly in the gearbox department would really concern me and frankly that takes the fun out of the experience at times.

 

That's unusual for you!!!!!
MG

 

dino dino,

You have identified what I think are or will be considered Ferrari classics. Certainly the 3X8s and Boxers already are. Looking into my crystal ball says that the 355s and 550s will be in a few years. So you are to be commended for your acumen in your short list.

I traveled to Ancona in 1985 and bought a '76 BB, s/n 21171. I owned the car for 15 years. At the time I lived in DE where I found lots of fun roads to drive and really stretch the legs of the BB. And I agree with both JazzyO and Newman that the BB is the last of the handbuilt Ferraris. I also characterize it as the last of the uncivilized Ferraris too. There are merits and deficiencies to being both.

Starting with the accolades first the BBs are pure in design. I never can figure out why the marketplace does not see it that way, but consider it a plus if you are looking. The engine is strong and pulls hard. The carbed cars have a phenomenal induction roar under hard pedal. Handling is quick, but I would not call it nimble due to its weight. A Dino it isn't. But it much more fun to drive that a Daytona. And I have driven all three of those examples extensively. I tracked my BB a couple of times and found it can have a quick shift from understeer to a wanting-to-spin oversteer. A great track car it isn't. But get it out on country roads with sweepers and you will be grinning ear to ear. There is a direct feel of the road that you won't get with the newer cars with power steering.

On the downside..........where do you live? If it is in a hot climate area your driving season will be short. Boxers have a triple threat when it comes to temperature and comfort. First the a/c is a joke. The fan is feeble and the vents cool the windshield and do little for the driver. Secondly the pipes run from the front mounted radiator back adding heat to the cockpit. And unfortunately the shape of the hood funnels hot air off the radiator back into the open window. So when the air temp exceeds 80 degrees plan on getting warm. Over 90......well just where work-out clothes. Significant others will not be amused.....

Another issue is that condition of the cars depend on which model you seek. There are car-guys like JazzyO that will make the commitment to properly upgrade/restore the 365s. They are considered the most raw of the 3 versions and have a following in the collector car world. The later BBi's were brought into the States when new even though they had to be homologated. And some US owners tended to really baby their cars and put less miles on them. So it is easier to find a really nice and reasonable mileage BBi on this side of the pond. The carbed 512 BBs are in no-man's-land. They were not imported new [no way to meet EPA] and really did not hit these shores until later in their lives. Accordingly finding a pampered 512 BB is not easy. Most racked up miles overseas where owners jettisoned them like the used cars that they are. And since they really have not garnered the collector car status owners have a hard time investing the many tens of thousands of $$ to make them new again lest they get upside down in the process. Betwixt and between.

So long story short make sure what goals you seek in your selection. Don't count on investment value in any of these cars. They are all production cars where maintenance might exceed any appreciation. Choose the car that best suits you intended use. My wife will only ride in my 575 because it has modern creature comforts. And it is fine in all but snowy weather [not much threat of that here in FL]. The 355 and 550 are way more practical cars than Boxers with the 550 getting the nod in my book for being more of a daily. The Boxers are a thrill to look at, drive and can become a valued part of your garage. That is as long as you understand the BBs strengths and weaknesses so that you will have realistic expectations.

 

dino dino,

I thought I would add my own impressions of my boxer as well. I have owned my 84 BBi for 4 years in it shares a garage with my 308 gt4, both are really amazing cars to drive with their own personalities. I remember when I first received my Boxer it was very intimidating and seemed heavy at slow speed and terrifying at high speed as the adhesion limits seemed vague. Over time there is a respect for the car and the shear bliss of back roads on a early Sunday morning and laying down the power out of a turn in the road is like no other car I have driven. It seems to be the last powerful Ferrari that does not have that drive by wire disconnect that the 355's and 456, etc. have.

As a matter of necessity, I have had to do the maintenance work on my Boxer myself and they are a marvel of engineering and actually a lot of fun to work on. Just about anything of major attention that needs to be done on the engine requires the engine out. It is not that difficult once you get the hang of it and can be done relatively quickly. Belt changes are straight forward and be sure to replace water pump bearings and seals at the same time. It is also important to check all shocks as they tend to go bad from sitting and handling is horrifying on bad shocks, also the clutch slave cylinder at the transmission, goes bad often and can leave you stranded with no clutch. Easy to have rebuilt and very easy to get to. The Tubi that I have is great on the car.

The fluidity of the shape of the car and the relationship of design themes, the nose and overhang, cabin and width of the engine shell are not only timeless but completely seamless in their synthesis of form. I am an Architect and I could go on forever about the merits of the Boxer form. I showed my Boxer at the Quail event last year and it received so many admiring remarks and comments.

The Ferrari 308 GT4 is my next favorite just for its handling, power to weight, and aural scream of the engine at 7,000 rpm. I have had mine for 9 years and have really enjoyed it. I enjoy these cars for what they are and I still can't understand the low prices of them at the moment. I would not hesitate to buy a Boxer now as I can not imagine how the prices could go any lower and there are so many pristine Boxers on the market. They are quite rare in the US.

 

Interesting comment about the "pamperedness factor" of the various Boxers, Steve, I hadn't thought of that before. I agree with you, although I have personally driven a pampered 512BB (18k miles), and I saw a similar one for sale this month in an ad. Sadly - both were RHD. It might have been a fluke or perhaps the UK treats BB's a bit different. In the rest of Europe, it is mostly the 365's that get the "spare-no-expense" treatment.


Onno

 

I own a Daytona, BB512 and F40. I try to take one out each week, so with weather that means each gets drive once a month. I look forward to driving the Boxer the most. For me its like driving a baby P4 on the road. Great sound, good torque, and enough of a modern suspension to enjoy moving it around on the road.

Maintenance on these cars can be high as a lot of stuff you want to do requires engine out. But if you are "handy", willing to take your time and learn from some of the experts around here you can do a lot of the work yourself.

 

I thoroughly agree with the posters here that the BB is very special, very specific in its mission, and one of the "greats". Has much to recommend in the future appreciation category too.

However, it wouldn't be my pick for a 'first' Ferrari, any more than I'd recommend Marlin fishing to a beginning angler. Give it some time.

The 3x8s are fabulous cars. All the sights, sounds, smells, joys and pains of ownership in smaller, more palatable doses. The rewards are high, risks relatively small, and you'll know pretty soon whether that Boxer passion is real or fleeting.

Get yourself a 3x8 and let us know. You've made a wise choice.

 

I know it is a bit off topic and many of you expert owners already know, but the belts can be changed on a Boxer without removing the engine. By removing the fuel tanks it leaves enough clearance to get the job done. I had this done on my 76 BB.

Sorry for the sidetrack........

 

I don't have much to add to the comments already posted. I've had my 512BB since 2004, and it's really grown on me over that time. When I bought it, it was mostly because I wanted the experience of owning a Boxer for a bit, even though my heart is really with the 1960s cars. My Boxer was extremely clean and well cared for, located close by, and reasonably priced, so I figured I couldn't go wrong.

In time, however, the Boxer has become a favorite of mine. The driving experience is quite different from my other cars, and yet it's entirely usable. Sure, it has no trunk space and thus isn't very usable for overnight trips (since the wife won't even sit in it, I guess I can use the passenger footwell for luggage space), but for a quick blast in the early evening it's tremendous.

I have to say, too, that my Boxer has been almost bullet proof in the time I've owned it-- I think it's the most trouble-free Ferrari I've ever owned. I'm taking it in for service today, and all it needs are the usual fluid changes.

 

Good day,

I have heard about doing it this way... I would be curious as to how long it took them to do it this way. I say this, as it takes only about 6 hours or so to remove a Boxer Engine and say about the same for the installation (say 12 to 14 hours total, as I have personally done it). Boxer engine removal is relatively straightforward and the benefit here is that it is a lot easier to adjust valves, degree the cams, replace some hard to get hoses, water pump, etc once the engine is out.

Cheers,

Sam

 

But why???
Engine out on a BB is easy,quick and straightfprward...

What ever time you may save by doing it this way, you'll spend even more time with the valve covers R&I, setting the valve clearnaces...and getting/checking the cam timing correct.

 

I bought mine this year, my third Ferrari

I added a Bell exhaust, 17 wheels and a major + + +.That amounts to an additional 40k over the cost of the car. It is not for the faint of heart as far as cost to repair.

Even thought the carbs are real bad after a rebuild. It is a blast to drive. I wouldn't trade it, for anything except an F-40.

If you want to stay overnight, just remove the spare and tool bag. Your clothes will be nice and toasty.

 

Still sorting the carbs???

 

My BB512i has been the most fun out of the 6 Ferraris I have owned...a 328GTS, 400GT, TR, 330GTC and 330GTC

 

Agree 100% with Pete's comments...except I'm going on 27 years of ownership with a 365bb. Many cars have come and gone through the years; the Boxer remains!

 

I started with a boxer. Undoubtably it has been expensive to keep, compared to say a 308. Compared to freinds with 550's and 355's probably not so expensive to keep. The key on a boxer is getting a good one, and getting it up to snuff. More than any car there is a huge difference between a well running and a great running boxer. These are very sensitive cars to setup. Unlike most cars the turn in tightens when adding power, ie the arc tightens, as opposed to nearly everything else that tends towards the front end washing out or widening the arc.

They also offer feedback on a multiplicitl of levels, more like a great aircraft. Plenty of buffeting and lightening of the controlls before limits exceeded but once gone it goes. So you have throttle affecting steering angle and limits to an extrodinary degree and lotts of feedback from everything. Get it right on the right day and road and the boxer can dance on its toes like no other. On the wrong rtoad and wrong day it is noisy cramped and hot.
So very much an occasion tyype of car, but like everything fine when savored properly is in a league of its own. Driven in solation i enjoy my M3, going from the boxer to the M3 feels like stepping into a chevy van, the difference really is that huge.

A 308 can offer some of the same thrills, but frankly the power and drama are not there. A boxer is a keeper, so it is really a lifelong commitment, because once you sort it and adjust you are pretty far in. If the money is not a huge barrier, and you are Ok or looking foir an occasion car go for the boxer.

 

if you're headed to 308 territory, i'd for sure vote for the GTB. the GTS is fun in nice weather, but the cleaner lines and stiffer body get my GTB vote.
and if you can get a euro-spec version like this, jackpot;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-Ferrari-308-GTB-QV-38Kmiles-View-HD-video-car-/300458991965?pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_1806wt_1167

i've owned my boxer for just over a year, my first ferrari. it's a 365 and i drive it every weekend all year long, if the roads are dry. critical to any boxer consideration is a real pro who can work on her for you. they are a unique breed and modern day F technicians are in way, way over their heads with these special beasts.

i'd say man up and get the boxer. come on.

 

I'd say you made a good choice. During my Ferrari ownership experience (328), I was active in the Ferrari Owners Club and almost never saw Boxers being driven, whereas the 308s and 328s were regulars at events up and down the coast. (Only one I saw on the road was a blue 365 here in San Diego.)

I like them all, but if you're going to drive the car I'd say the 308/328 are much better value if you start with a good one and take care of it. If did it again, I'd get an early Euro-spec carbureted 308 GTS (hard to do in California due to smog regs). Between the crappy a/c and the incredible engine sound, and the fact that these aren't competitive track cars anymore, I'd vote for the GTS. Prettier, IMHO, and nicer if you use the car in good weather only.

If investment matters (a bad idea here), I agree with one of the earlier posts that a 308 in fibreglass is probably the pick of the lot. I think Boxers will recover some of what they've lost value-wise and probably catch up to the 246 at some point, but the servicing costs are pretty steep.

 

The Boxer is easy to drive around town. Purchase the best car you can locate.