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512 TR values - Another leg up

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ASK328, May 3, 2015.

  1. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3
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    Oh, and my 512tr is a beater....it has 21K miles. But, I cant say that I have seen a black one for sale in quite a while. :)
     
  2. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    Imo..

    This thread is a value thread, not a competition thread


    This ideaology of chastising or belittling owners of collecter cars that are driven little if not at all is really getting lame.
    In the circles i relate to , owners have more than one if not 5 other collectable cars.
    What is good for some may not be good for all,but does not deserve a negative connotation.
    I have maintained at least 2 collectable cars simueltaneously for over 20 years, and driven some heavily and some not at all.

    If A collector chooses to drive only 200 or 2000 miles per year it is thier perogative
    THIS is what makes a market place for everyone to appreciate.
     
  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Amen. And half the time it isn't even about choosing to drive 200 miles a year - it's more about having other priorities/obligations that require time and attention.
     
  4. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3
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    ttforcefed....did I ever see that you had an Esprit turbo in your garage? The fuel pump system in my 87 is driving me crazy!
     
  5. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    nope not me have never owned a lotus (i don't think....)
     
  6. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    if you want to avoid piling up the miles on your cars, and yet still drive them, then get more of them.

    but i remain of the opinion that cars should be used for what they were made to do - drive. art collections are static, cars are meant to be appreciated parked AND in motion. NOT using cars is like using your paintings as awnings or shower curtains - can they do those jobs? yes, but thats not what they were made for.
     
  7. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    #207 ttforcefed, Jan 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    ross most paintings reside in vaults

    driving an f40 or even a 512tr on crappy roads in ny isn't all that enjoyable either to be honest. Speed limit if 55. going to get bagels in a cgt doesn't bring a lot of enjoyment. call me crazy

    driving an FF every day thru the snow and pot holes - game on! 21k miles and counting. driving the countach to work - can't get over the speed bumps. starting the CS on a cold morning - id wake up my entire house.
     
  8. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    a clean 12k mile car went for about 1.25 at a recent auction. about 6 months before than a clean 3k mile car went for 1.6M but there was cash under the table and a whole bunch of other stuff that some people have sworn didn't happen. another 3k mile car traded twice around 1.52.
     
  9. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3
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    #209 johnhoughtaling, Jan 6, 2016
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    The nothing Mileage value is absurd at every objective level, and when you get into seriously valuable older cars it is meaningless and the hobby is better for it. I like to see owners ridiculed that place a value in 1,000 miles car bc we all should. Why? Because it encourages cars not to be used, and that should be discouraged.

    You can buy a car and make a planter out of it or hang it on your wall. That's your right. But I am free to crticize bad and lame ideas. I hope such scorn never gets old or tired bc the idea of buying something that people are afraid to then use is bad. Kind of like what the insurance industry does to people.

    As the car get older and more valuable, mileage matter less. A 1986-1991 model car worth less than a couple million bucks is not grade A collector car. You rarely find anyone that cares about mileage on a truly rare or special grade A collectible car. This only matters on are cars that are more mass produced, where people strive to find something more special and choose a lack of Miles.

    If it sounds like I am being condensending or insulting, I am and I am on purpose. Because the more produced exotics should be enjoyed for being the wonderful and beautiful working machines they are. The idea of one of these cars being more special bc it wasn't used is a bad idea that saps enjoyment. If the car is intrinsically special its special. The fact it has a readout on a clock should not make people desire it tremendously more or less. I concede it is a reality of value on more mass priced cars. And that's a shame as some ring we avoiding all try to change.

    The issue is not that people are too busy to driver or have too many cars or like to just look at them in a museum setting. What we should discourage is people chasing a zero mileage collective bc that makes it valuable and being shy to use it bc using it would destroy he reason it's special and hurt value. The only virtue someone who fancies no mileage is that they think it's more valuable that way and that person is then disuaded from driving it for taking its special nature away. That's a shame and hinders enjoyment. If more people disrespected this view, cars would be driven and enjoyed and retain more value while being enjoyed.
     
  10. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    #210 msdesignltd, Jan 6, 2016
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    Now! Do you have to be so pissy bully about it?

    Tell me...Who....died....and made you..."The Collector Car Czar"
    Your opinion is good for you and maybe 49% of the population.
    My opinion, was not invented by me. Yet if it was, i would be proud of it.
    Proud that in this country I am free to express my actions and not worry about retribution.
    Certainly not from a forum member here!

    Your reply is borderline persecution and this is your right too.
    Just be prepared for an equal and opposite reaction.
     
  11. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    not always. i have friends who have to keep some of their art in vaults because the paintings are worth more than their house by multiples and they cannot or will not secure their house to a level that can satisfy the insurance companies - true. but i also have friends that have picasso's and such like hanging in their foyer - some on this site. it all depends on your attitude towards risk and consumption i guess.

    i totally understand your statement about some of these cars not being suitable for mundane chores - i have experienced this first hand.
    however, that is NOT what i am saying. i am saying that when i was planning a road trip from geneva to monaco for example, i would be considering which fcar was ideal for that purpose, and actually take one of them. i bought luggage for the f40 for precisely that reason - my wife wanted to take that car to the tennis tournament. on another occasion, knowing that i had to negotiate my friends driveway in grasse, i took the 456mgt - horses for courses. but what i dont do, is think about the mileage i will be putting on the car - THAT is not a thought that i would want to have or encourage others to have, because you live ONCE, and nobody lies on their deathbed regretting the mileage they put on their fcar because they drove it along the corniche too many times.
     
  12. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    wow. so a mickey mantle rookie that's discolored and bent and ripped shoud trade the same amount as a mint one? same for a coin? let's face it, miles indicate use. use brings on higher probability the car was abused or has a story. you may not like it, but it's the case and the market reflects this across all brands
     
  13. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Completely agree with you Ross YOLO (you only live once) :)

    For that reason I now am looking for a nice red 458 :D ! And make miles with it !
     
  14. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    and ur 100 percent entitled to do what makes you happy just as the guy who decides to leave the f40 at home and take the FF
     
  15. MoeD

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    #215 MoeD, Jan 6, 2016
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    Intentional deprivity is a shame, but is one reality with which we need not concern ourselves, as the world balances itself in that regard, because the owner only serves to deprive himself; however, I do feel this person is very much more a minority than most may realize as there a myriad of reasons not to drive a car that are also value based.

    The shame of it partially extends to the fact that as a model gets more valuable, it's also more difficult to drive freely without worry.

    In addition, the more valuable cars are generally possessed by those of us who have more cars than they can drive. I have had cars I've owned and never driven even once, and others that I drive weekly. Some of this was intentional and some not. My goals differ with each purchase and they may be derailed by the realities of life. Pursuit and attainment of the respective goals is part of the satisfaction of ownership.

    It should be noted as well that the passion in these cars is not solely behind the wheel as values are often driven by timeless beauty, and there's a thread somewhere where it was discussed that the satisfaction for some owners was not to drive but just to have and/or to view their cars as a form of art.

    The reality is while it is a shame to choose not to drive a car based on value, it's reality. But it's not everyone's reality for not driving, as there are other plenty of other reasons not to drive. There's nothing that can be done about that, or the fact that each can do as he pleases with that which belongs to him- and that's also a luxury of the ownership experience.

    To make more than a point that it's a shame that cars don't get driven is not worthwhile. There are countless reasons for not driving a car. The idea is that sure, there are probably some who choose not to drive their cars based on value- And there are those who fit into countless other categories as well, and likely there is plenty of overlap between categories as well.

    In all other forms of this subject I personally feel those who don't get to drive are missing out on a car's original intention for being, yet driving may be a smaller component of the intended ownership experience for some than others. I've been guilty of that as well, and the only person affected are the many individual owners who don't get to drive or drive as much as they'd like, and not to be judged by others, for there are countless intentions in owner satisfaction competing with realities of ownership.
     
  16. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    #216 msdesignltd, Jan 6, 2016
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    This Article came out this week..as if we did not know this already..
    'Passion investing' in classic cars is gaining speed


    May I ask the advocates of not, not driving their Ferrari's...
    IF you could have 2 of the exact Ferrari's you have now..just serial #'s apart
    or any 2 or more Ferrari's
    One with 22,000 miles and one with 2000 miles..

    If you only had time to drive one...Which would you drive mostly..
    This is possible for some to do...for some it is the best of both worlds...
    Its probably how most of all low mileage F cars got that way.
    Why is this so hard to understand..??
    what is wrong with cherishing a materialistic object in a state of perfection.??
    I do drive a ferrari..1 to 2 K per year,...I am not missing out on anything..
    I rest my case...and many others as well.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. johnhoughtaling

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    #217 johnhoughtaling, Jan 6, 2016
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    You ask what's wrong with driving 1-2k miles a year. Nothing. But at the risk of pointing out the obvious, It's not possible for someone to have driven a 512 1-2k miles a year and stay at 2k miles on a 1992-1994 mile car. You'd be at 22-44k miles at least.

    We are talking about the realative virtue of a 2,000 mile car. I am not arguing the market would not hammer the 2,000 mile 512, if used. I'm saying we should criticize that as a bad idea. I'd say the 2,000 mile 512 likely needs some exercise for its own good; The fact that the market values the 2k car less as its used is something we should ridicule.

    If the only picture you use to frame your reference is of two relatively massed produced cars, then this limited view of 'collectibles' gives one the tendency is to equate them to other mass produced pedestrian cars. Move very far up market and take a look around to see. Assume you are the guy who proudly shows the picture of the two 250 GTOs you own. (yes there was such a guy). Imagine one accumulated 22,000 miles at LeMans and other tracks and imagine the other was not much used. All other things equal, the one with the miles is preferred. At a Much lower level, because Walt Hansgen flogged my Xk120M within an inch of its life is precisely why the market demanded I had to pay 4 times as much as a lesser used 120. But move away from a valueable competition car and take a second tier collectible Sportscars you may like, with about 22k miles on her clock. Take arguably the best Muira SV, 4870, which if I recall, had not much less than 22k put on her clock by the Shah of Iran himself. 4870 broke a record for the most expensive Lambo every sold.

    It is a mistake to conflate mileage and condition. I'm not criticizing wanting the car perfect. I've spent millions buying show cars, and restoring them for a museum so I get it. But my point is something different. The market rewards non use of high production cars (over 10k cars). To value a TR this way is to value it with the criteria you use to value a Honda Civic. On real grade A collectibles, it doesn't matter much at all. Condition and more so history -if it has it, matters. A 1,000 mile 1985 TR is not often in good mechanical shape but the market prefers it over a carefully driven 22k mile car. Anyone can express an idea but not all ideas are Equal. Some ideas are bad and should not be respected. And this one should be ridiculed.

    The hobby would be better off if Collectors and the market in general grew more sophisticated. I've never once thought about mileage when I drove Miura SV 4870, or my S or my the DD CT. Driving 4870 back and forth to my beach house made me think about the condition but never the mileage. ( I admit I regret driving it 4 hours along the sandy beach in the rain in the attempt to bed the supermodel who, after getting in told me she thought my camaro was cool.) The Value decreased only to the extent it took it to take it back to 100 points. Which I did twice. Condition matters in the market for a car of this calibur and collectibility, not mileage. Yes on cars like Miura SV 4870, worth 20 times a 512, things are different. But they shouldn't be. Take a car worth merely double a TR, a perfectly restored DD CT. Drove it from 100 points to 80 points and restored it twice. Road chips and scuffed leather , not mileage, made the difference to the market. The mileage not so much if at all.

    512s are great cars and should have a better status IMHO where it's condition and wear, not just mileage that makes a difference. Maybe they are just too common and there are just too many "new" cars that people must find something else as social. But it's a shame.

    And any chance there is to snicker at the idea of the guy bragging about his sub 10k mile car should be taken.
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    the hobby wld be better off because u say so?

    how about you don't ridicule anyone and let the guy who writes the check figure out what he wants to do with his possessions. isn't that the more mature/adult thing to do?

    like shld we snicker or ridicule the fact that you managed to weed in "in the attempt to bed the supermodel who"? what does that have to do with low mile 512trs?
     
  19. johnhoughtaling

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    #219 johnhoughtaling, Jan 6, 2016
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    Not bc I say but bc value attached solely to numbers on an odometer (which may be different from condition) doesn't represent defensible virtue at any level of the collector car market except towards the 'realitively' lower end. And if a guy was able to drive his 999 mile car, without damaging its 'worth' , that's a good thing for the car and the owner.

    As for your second point:

    Just because the guy writes a check for something doesn't mean we should respect it!! And it was precisely my point that yes you should absolutely ridicule the shallow reason why I drove 4870 through the sandy rain!! (I had many bad ideas as a bachelor in my youth as my lovely wife would no doubt agree!!) The point of the 'bad idea" story was that the rain and sand devalued 4870 to the extent they damaged the finish of the car. It wasn't the miles on the odometer.

    And to clarify I'm trying to ridicule a bad idea, not a person. There is an important difference. (we should all confront bad ideas bc it can make the world a better place). I have made my best friends in the collector car hobby, and I love it. I also hate things in the collector car hobby that are harmful to it in general.

    I'm signing off now, so good luck, and enjoy your wonderful 512s. I bought one bc I think they are more special than the market gives them credit for. Drive them and enjoy them, bc they will likely bc more valuable. Hopefully revered to the point that mileage means less. Remember aspire to the most valuable Ferrari collection ever, it was Bardinons. They were the most used examples!
     
  20. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    #220 msdesignltd, Jan 7, 2016
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    After deliberate and careful analysis of all your posts.
    I have decided to conceed defeat.
    I will be driving my F car this weekend as much as possible.
    Just need somewhere to go!
    Maybe , I too will bed a supermodel!
     
  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    john williams - you and i are kindred spirits. if i am ever in new orleans i will look you up.
     
  22. sherrillt

    sherrillt Formula Junior
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    Although still alive....with the power vested in me I hereby make John the "Collector Car Czar"...John with great power comes great responsibility....use it wisely
     
  23. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    I keep looking for the " like button"
    Where is it. !!!!
     
  24. tvu

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    Question for John - did you have your 512TR back in 1995 or so?

    My first spotting of a 512TR in the wild was in uptown NOLA. It was at N. Carrollton St. passing Canal St. heading toward City Park.

    Had to ask - since there are only 400 or so in country, and I'm assuming a handful in NOLA if that.
     
  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I agree with your view wholeheartedly.

    However mileage equates to condition for many, not least because restoring a 308 is going to push the cost way above that of a low mileage one.

    I think we probably also agree that low mileage can equate to great cosmetic condition, but crappy mechanical condition.

    The whole thing gets ultra ludicrous when people are afraid to put mileage on new ferraris.
    But then we have probably observed that most buyers of new ferraris buy them to be seen in them, to self affirm their "sucess" not necessarily to "drive" a skill which they are probably questionable at. Cars today are sadly about stats, what it cost, when it was built, laptimes, brand etc, and far less about how they go. Thats a function of selling sportscars as lifestyle to stay in buisness, values and cars as "collectables". Its also a function of our speed limited and trafficked age, where actualy using the machine is very difficult for many.

    Thats why a lotus elige is such a pure machine not just in terms of dynamics; Its not so valuable that anyone really thinks the mileage or road rash is going to affect value to much, has zero status amongst the moneyed masses but is superlative to drive. So no one buys one except to drive and track. I think way back when ferraris were the same.

    The current low use high cosmetic mantra also explains why many a ferrari may run, but really runs at 70% of full design function. If we valued how cars run, then one with more mileage might be a premium because its operated by someone who keeps it in top form.
    Instead cosmets are the value, and as long as the car can make it to the cars and coffe at the speed limit, most owners feel its doing what thye bought it for.

    And for those who want to talk about road conditions snow etc, I get that, live it every year, none of which stops you from letting the horses run on crisp quiet sunday 7am drive, or heaven forbid a little track excercise.

    Horses for courses for sure, but if you own it, sometimes you really gotta use it, otherwise what you own is handbag for men, which I guess explains most new ferraris.

    Brings me tot he new ford GT. From what we know so far it looks to be a superlative road car, drive to and on the track machine. Most will sadly dissapear into "collections" only to resurface at auctions of estate sales 30 years later.

    Like having great wine and never drinking it.
     

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