458: Why so big?

If you want a tiny sports car and need something that has added lightness, get the Lotus.

I can think of several reasons why the car weighs as much as it does and why it is as big as it is. Tiny, light cars tend to be a little ruff riding and choppy. A short wheelbase and narrow track can also contribute to stability issues. The V8 is larger when compared to a V6 (Ferrari Vs Lotus). It is difficult to tune the suspension on a light weight car because a 200lb passenger in a 1800 lb car is a much bigger change percentage wise than a 200lb passenger in a 3200 lb car.

I think there comes a time when the total performance package is more important than power to weight ratio. People are bigger now than they were a few years ago and many people appreciate the easy ingress/egress that a larger car can accommodate.

Compare the performance numbers from the Ferrari and Evora. Is there any segment other than weight and fuel economy that the Lotus is even close? I am not saying that the car should not be lighter or smaller, but I am saying that they did a pretty good job of building a car that will work for a wide range of people. The 458 is a bread and butter car for Ferrari and it has to appeal to a wide range of people. Many of those people want more of a GT feel (comfortable and quiet on top of putting up stellar numbers) so there are compromises. This is why they have room to chop 100 kilos out of the Scud type models.

 

+1

Most people who can afford a Ferrari have a 'plump' wallet.

Most people with a plump wallet are, in fact, also 'plump' around the belly area.

Hard to imagine 328's fitting a large segment of the LARGE U.S. population these days.

 

yes. the 458 is designed for a 'larger' segment..thus the size 'compromise'. performance, crash standards, comfort for a wide range of customers...they all factor in. still, for its mission, the end result is pretty fantastic.

 

And it needs a big motor. A light car will accelerate, turn, and stop quickly. But top speed is power vs. wind resistance. And that means you gotta have power. Top speed on a Lotus Exige S is like 150 mph. No way Ferrari will build a car so "slow". Powerful motor = heavy tranny, heavy driveline, heavy chassis....

 

Because 6 foot 2+, 240+ lbs people can't fit in a 308.

If the Evora were such a great car, why don't they sell well in the US? The main reason -- they are too small for most of the market.

Also, the HP and top speed wars force the car to be extremely powerful and aerodynamic over lightness. When you shoot for the top level of performance, you are going to have to pull out all the stops. That means more power, more stress, more issues of control, etc. All those require more of everything including size.

The 458 is also being designed as a convertible because 50% of the market wants one. That means there is compromise built into the design to contain the roof (which many of us believe will be a hardtop). The Evora never will be made into a convertible.

Lastly, when I drive my F430, it feels anything but big. It's not the actual dimensions that make the difference. It's how you feel when you're driving it that matter. This car does feel small, light, and with highly sophistated handling. Who cares what the actual dimensions are as long as it works?

BTW: the 458 is the exact same length as the 430 and only 1/2 inch wider. So, saying it's so much bigger than the F430 is just not true. In fact, it's probably much more slender with less surface metal.

 

Lotus is still too disconnected from the road, and a bit chunky... for me it's gotta be an Atom for the true driving experience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA

 

Years ago i was driving my new 308 when I saw a friend and he asked me how I liked my car.I told him "great but there were some compromises". he quickly corected me and said Ferrari did not compromise anything ,that the car was just exactly how THEY wanted it.You like what they think is right or buy American.The one exception might arguably be the California.Build them fast, beautiful and expensive and they will come.

 

I agree. Also I think it has a little to do with being comfortable, as an increasing number of buyers intend to use the car daily which would be more like a chore if they where folded up.

 

True. Most people don´t love cars enough to make some sacrifices.

The sad thing is that Ferrari is already building cars for those who want to take it easy, like the California and the 599, but it seems that it´s not enough for those fat b*stards.

 

Where the 458 is big???????? It's the same external dimension of the 430 and with skinner lines it looks even smaller..

And have you really looked at the space inside? Behind the seats there is less room than the 430,the front boot is much smaller,and the engine bay looks much filled than all other v8 Ferraris..

 

Try tall b*stards; at 6'7" I'll happily take all the space inside I can get!

 

Maybe on big American roads but you should try driving one in, say, North Wales in the U.K. Dry stone wall gunning for your paint job on one side big truck coming at you on the other. It starts to feel way too big then. A lot of really nice roads become useless for anything other than very careful driving.

And to me they've felt too big from the 360 onwards, not least because there's just too much space inside. To me a sports car should fit you like a glove. Try a Caterham 7 for example and see how connected you feel to the car. O.K. different kind of car, but it does illustrate the kind of intimacy you get when the car is all around you. Some of the intimacy gets lost when the cabin is as large as, say, an F430.

 

I am with you on all points. The only "justification" I think Ferrari might have is that with the new pedestrian crash standards, a higher bonnet line is needed, and that necessitates some of the other dimensions to keep the look sleek and proportional overall. Other than that, yes, it's going the wrong way.

All the arguments, about passengers' size and weight, weight in relation to the overall weight, etc., etc., I don't buy them in the sense that I don't believe they dictated the design. Rather, once the design was completed, they are being thought up and used to justify it. That doesn't change the simple fact that it's a big, fairly heavy car, which is antithetical to the purity of a sports car. Instead of touting its performance, which is impressive no doubt, think of what the performance could have been if the package was not allowed to swell up.

 

I'm barely 6'5" and 210lbs,working out 2hrs daily,very careful about what I eat.
There is no way in hell I could squeeze my frame in a Caterham,not even in the Elise.
348 and 355 ,even Daytona,were completely undriveable for me,550 and later cars were finally roomy enough that I could drive them without having my knees next to my ears.
I'm glad they finally make these cars for normal size guys ,not just for midgets.

 

I disagree on the Lotus (disconnected?!) but I'm totally with you on the Atom. I wish Ferrari would offer that kind of ultra-hardcore streetable track toy. If you think about it, the first Ferrari -- the 125S and subsequent 166 series -- were very much built of this ethos. Today, I see none of that left.

The 458 is awesome, for sure. But I get the sense there's a real desire in the cultural zeitgeist a for an ultra-light Ferrari like the Atom. Are Ferrari's ears hearing the same thing? I don't know...

 

I fit just fine in my 328 back in the day.

Signed,
6'2 240lbs.

 

FWIW, I agree with you. A car needn't be that long to have a powerful engine. I had the same view when the 360 arrived -- it's a boat compared to the 355 and looks comparatively unattractive because of it, IMHO. If Porsche can get 530 bhp from a turbo flat six tucked in the rear, I would also agree that Ferrari may not be making the best use of all that space.

As others have commented, it's probably a combination of affluent people putting on weight, and also Ferrari's focus on luxury for its road cars. I think Ferrari has abandoned the hardcore track segment to Lotus, and maybe Porsche, because at $200K+ they're making fashion items at this point (Challenge cars excepted).

As an aside, almost every car seems to have gotten larger than it used to be. The Porsche 997 is up to 175", which IIRC is about a foot longer than my old 993.

 

Here here! I'm 6'7" and 250. I fit GREAT in my 360, but have to shoehorn into my 328. I even managed to CRAM into an Elise a month ago. Was a blast to drive, but I had worn bleeding blisters into my shins and knees where they were impacting the dash, and the sides of my hips as the seat vised on my pelvis.

The things us tall guys do to fit in the cool cars that you short guys took driving for granted all these years.

Now it's our turn, bit*hes! Get those phone books out and prop yourselves up and drive the big F-cars with the big boys!

Please, no one get upset, this is all said in jest.

 

A lot of the size is for purely practical reasons. Room for 20" wheels, 8.5 and 10.5 inches in width, and appropriate tires to go with 398 mm CCM brake rotors. Big brakes needed to go with 200 mph potential. Big torque rated transaxle, axles, suspension, etc to put up with 560+ hp and nearly 400 ft lbs of torque. Cooling system and dry sump to put up with 9000+ rpm engine. Air conditioning, electric everything, etc. Wide track and long wheel base to smooth ride and improve ultimate cornering power.

The Corvette Z06 on a really strict diet got down to 3050 lbs in the stripper version. The Scud version of the 458 will be about the same, but not much you can do about size. On the GT1 Corvettes, they even had to widen the body to make it competitive.

Plus it makes the big guys happy, and who wants to argue with them? In the old days, you needed short legs and arms like an ape to perfectly fit a Ferrari. Times change.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I'm afraid you're not normal. The average American male is five foot nine and a half inches and the average British male is half an inch shorter again. Even the Netherlands, with the highest average, only comes in at six foot and half an inch. You are officially a giant!

 

I agree!

 

Right!!

 

I think the market has been speaking for a few years, and it says "big".