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Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by dann0, Oct 25, 2019.
Correct friend Golattus !
Do fill out your name and other data under your avatar please ...
And yet the 458 stands tall.
There is something that still amazes me, and I cannot figure out how it will turn eventually.
There is basically a difference of the same order between, on one side the 458 and 488 and on the other side the Speciale and Pista (some may argue with that, but I can't see how).
Ferrari however did price the Speciale and Pista very differently, while the 488 was introduced at almost the same price as the latest 458.
For the time being the used cars market reflects the arbitrary pricing from Ferrari on new cars, but while I could understand how a 488 could only be EUR 10K more than a 458 (it was the initial difference after all, even though I believe the 488 offers better value), it's more difficult for me to understand how a Pista will be EUR 100K more than a Speciale in a sustainable way (based on the cars intrinsic qualities, not on Ferrari's pricing policy).
An interesting note :
When the 458 was released Australia AUD was going through the roof as the rest of the world was in recession. Most likely took Ferrari AUS by surprise. The 458 were way overpriced because of this.
When the 488 GTB was introduced the AUD was coming down but I believe Ferrari AUS because of this and sluggish sales reduced the price of the 488 GTB by about 15%.
The 458's still are lower than the 488GTB's but then again they have much more KM's , older , multiple owners and were much dearer to start with.
Well … not too difficult: the 458 Speciale is a Limited Edition.
The Pista is not ...
I bet that F8 is going to taunt you. I didn't think Ferrari could out do the 488, but they have. Thanks for the feedback.
That's not true. Both the 458 Speciale and the Pista are low volume non-limited cars. I believe they are also produced in roughly the same numbers. The 458SA was a limited edition, which the Pista Spider is not. That being said, while Ferrari says 499, who knows how many are actually out there - no doubt it's quite a few more. The Pista Spider is what, 700-800 cars, so still low. In a few years, I think the market will value the Pistas just as much as the Speciales. Fact is the 458 Speciale market has softened significantly, and continues to do so.
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A 10,000km 488 for $350K !!!!! That's a steal!, even if it has all the CFs in the whole world, A decent spec 488 with 0 miles and another with only 46 Miles , with prices as low as $244,900!!! and even less!!!
Check these 2 pre-owned 488s:
1- 2017 Ferrari 488 GTB
2- 2019 Ferrari 488 GTB
He is QUOTING AUSTRALIA. Anyway more like 400 k and 2016 model
Yep aus. Mandalay i have been offered some very attractive deals on 488s... very aggressive. New 18/19 stock with delivery miles for $400k for example. 17 model with 2k kms for well under... sure there's on-roads to add but that's only circa 15-20 if I'm not wrong.
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You should go and buy one if they are that cheap.
Incredibly well said and true. Been spending the last week test driving both. Knowing the 458 pretty well I am checking out the 488 to decide which way to go and so far the 488 doesn’t even come close to capturing the magic. Strange thing is, it’s not that the 488 is not great-it’s just that the 458 is a damn masterpiece.
That's exactly it. The 458 Italia is just really hard to beat.
It all depends on what one is looking for in a car - personnally I could not cope with the lack of power of the 458, and the sound appeared to me even more annoying, like it was desperately trying to hide the lack of power by its screams (when I tried the 458 I was owning a 599, in a different league in terms of sound quality and power - if I lost the sound quality by comparison with the 488, at least I got some decent power).
How many horses do you need? I have a feeling you actually meant the torque, as that's directly influencing how one's body feels during acceleration.
562 horsepower or 570 PS is still considered very high power in today's standard, especially considering its weight at 3450 lbs or 1565 kg.
I meant power, but not peak power (which is in my opinion too often mistaken for power).
To me the actual power of a car is not reduced to a peak power figure, but is represented by the whole power curve (which is indeed a function of the torque and the rev).
The peak torque gives some hints of the shape of the power curve, but it's still only one point of information - the real power is only correctly represented by the curve.
And what moves the car is always the power, not the torque - for each rev value of the engine, you get a torque value that, combined with the rev, defines the actual power at this point.
I think you are in fact describing the turbo engine horsepower characteristic displayed in the area under curve. The horsepower for any naturally aspirated engine is more or less a linear curve with the horsepower proportional to the rev. What you are describing that you like belongs to that of a turbo. The peak power of turbo engine arrives much sooner than a NA engine. In street driving any turbo car would feel more powerful because you feel both peak torque and peak horsepower much sooner than NA engine unless one intentional shifts much later in a NA engine. In terms of the area under curve, this means a larger area is obtained much sooner on the left side of the curve.
I am not quite sure what you meant exactly by the power curve - don't confuse the curves with horsepower and torque - they are two separate curves. Horsepower dictates final speed whereas torque dictate the acceleration. Actually you might mean the AUC (area under curve) the whole time without really knowing it.
Take electric car with maximum torque at zero rpm which is responsible in absurd 0-60 times, but they always lose the final speed competition because their converted horsepower is smaller in comparison.
Again, apple to orange as in the case of turbo to NA engine. One to each of his own, but the principles in explaining the area under the curve is the same for all engine types characteristics.
On a side note, your previous complaint of 458 having loud sound as if to make up for lack of power is actually dubious, as both physical entities are not directly related to each other in a physical sense. You can have an quiet engine without much power or loud engine with or without much power.
FWIW, Hagerty has a “sell” recommendation on 458s.
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Here's the thing. Of course we're talking torque. Horsepower is just a function of torque.
Anyway, I completely agree with 488. It's not about whether 570 ps is a lot or not, it's about the fact that we as humans evolve. Some of us get physically used to the sensation of various forces on our bodies. I have the exact same problem with the GT3RS. Put your foot in it, and it makes a lot of noise, but not much happens in terms of actual propulsion - or at least it feels that way..the 458 shouts a lot in a pretty monotone way, but I don't get the fizz and a sensation of rapid accelleration. Not entirely sure why, but evsn back in '10 when I first got to know the 458, it was a bit like that. Never really felt the power was truly there, and to me, it was as it is to me now, a bit hyped up.
I feel the 488 is a lot more honest and direct in both its directness, as well as its capabilities. A 488 to me, feel like it has the power it claims, somehow, I don't get that sensatiòn from the 458. In two years time, I suspect that those of us whom either have an SF90 on order, or access to one, will start longing for a bit more than what the 488 has to offer. It's just the natural progression of things for some of us. I myself is very curious as to how the SF90 will affect my view of both the Pista and 488, and I have no illusions about the fact that the SF90 will change some of my feelings regarding the 488 and probably Pista.
Also, having spent quite a bit of time on the drag strip, my opinion on what can be considered really fast accelleration, has definitely been skewed. 0-100 kph in 3 seconds is fun, especially if the car keeps pulling, love the 812 in this regard. But doing 0-100 kph in 1.8-1.5 seconds, or even less, just gives the term holeshot a completely new definition.
So to answer your question, do we really need more? Yes, some of us do, and lots of it
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Actually we're talking horsepower. Torque is merely a component (along with rpm) of horsepower. Torque without rpm gets you nothing. Rpm without torque gets you nothing. Torque with rpm gets you horsepower, and that's what matters. The 458 and 488 both make peak torque under 4500 rpm. In fact, the 458 has a very flat torque curve very near its peak from about 3500 rpm all the way to 6500 rpm. In a race, you can stay at nearly peak torque the entire time just by shifting at 6500 rpm. You will lose.
The reason sports cars have gone from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 speed gearboxes is not because of broad, flat torque curves. It is because it keeps the car near the top of the (typically peaky) power curve. That means the car accelerates faster.
There is an iron-clad rule of physics: To calculate the maximum acceleration of any car, you use peak horsepower, not peak torque.
Yes cars with a broad high torque curve feel "powerful" at lower rpm. But that's because they are making more power there! It is power that dictates acceleration AND top speed.
Teslas make a lot of low rpm torque, which translates to more low rpm power.
Yes, power = torque times angular velocity (read rpm)
In order to settle this quasi physics discussion in the setting of turbo vs NA engine and how one feels the power of the car, we must talk about the gearing! Gearing in any car control the torque by the RPM, and thus the power overall, per the equation above.
So for those who complains about feeling lack of so called power in a NA car, what is the gear you are in at what RPM under what condition?
Actually to push the argument even further, it does rely significantly on the driver's expertise to bring the best of a car under different driving conditions with different gears the driver choose to be in. Until then, simply saying a turbo car is more fun than a NA car is overly simplified. But of course for general public, that is okay, but we are not general public right? We know what makes NA engine fun as car enthusiasist, it's not just about how much your back is pressed against the seat. For that, I would pick a Tesla p100d.
Back to price parity of 458 and 488. I do venture to say that if it weren't for the tightening regulation, Ferrari would very likely stay NA as long as they could. Why?
one is clearly much quicker and I don’t care.
Right. I know the difference between horsepower and torque. You need to remember that rpm with no torque gets as little work done as torque without rpm. Torque is 'work" and hp is that amount of work over a set amount of time and revolutions.
Trust me, when a car accelerates, you feel torque being applied. If a car accellerates from 100 to 160 kph from say 5000 rpm to 8000 rpm using 300 ft.tq, then it takes x sec to reach 160. If you then add 150 ft.lb. it will take less time as more force is being applied per revolution.
Hp is just a name of a measuring unit of ft.lb x rpm / 5252, nothing more.
What we feel is torque, because torque is the force applied.
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