400i whats it worth? | FerrariChat

400i whats it worth?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by mauispence, Oct 2, 2007.

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  1. mauispence

    mauispence Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2005
    526
    Lahaina, Maui, Hawai
    Full Name:
    Jim Spence
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-400i-5-speed-possible-parts-car_W0QQitemZ110176146549QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    I found this 400i 5 speed on e-bay with quite a story behind it. I have a son who is an excellent mechanic but I have to wonder what the old "parts" are worth and what new parts it would take to make this car truly trustworthy as a daily driver? I read on another thread that a 5 speed car is worth around $35000 in daily driver condition. That being my benchmark $#. How much can I pay for this one before I’m guaranteed to be upside down in it?
     
  2. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2003
    8,887
    Central NJ
    As far as I know, a rebuild is about $25 - $30k of which $15 - $20k would be parts and external services.

    By the way, how is the mosquito situation in your area, if it's bad, maybe it's worth keeping the car as-is! :D

    Good Luck,

    Art S.
     
  3. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    +1 easy
     
  4. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
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    mitchell barnes
    you are right on, unless bottom end now has problems. i am tearing one apart now. will keep all posted
     
  5. James in Denver

    James in Denver Formula 3

    May 23, 2006
    2,136
    Centennial Colorado
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    James in Denver
    Interestingly, I posted a thread asking if that Austn5 guy on ebay was legit. If I recall, absolutely NO ONE responded. Either no one wanted to say, or no one had dealt with him......

    Glad I didnt buy a 400 from him.....

    James in Denver
     
  6. Andrew-400i

    Andrew-400i Karting

    Sep 22, 2007
    186
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    The reserve for that 400i is around the $8,000 USD mark. How do I know? Dad had a chat to him about the car. We'll see how close it gets to the reserve, but we are seriously running out of room at home, and to be honest, who needs 3x400's and 1x365 2+2 ?

    We do live in excess lol

    Andrew :)
     
  7. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
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    Kenneth
    Does anyone know the reason for the smoke? It could be lots of things from 'not so bad' to 'complete rebuild'. For $8k I don't think the right type of guy can go too far wrong.

    Ken
     
  8. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    valve guides? It wouldn't be the first 400i with blown guides. Not an inexpensive fix.
     
  9. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
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    Kenneth
    I was thinking valve guides too but could it be anything else simple like just running too rich? What's 24 guides cost anyway? But then you may have a few valves to replace too, and while you're at it a myriad of other things. May even need new pistons if the oil rings are bad...

    Ken
     
  10. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Jan 23, 2006
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    WAY more than you think
     
  11. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Just the guides and the seals will run you over $1,000. Cam cover gskt sets? $80 a side. Head gskts? Probably another $300 or so. Valves if you need them, and you will if you've blown the guides, are $100+ each. Misc hoses, nuts, and other stuff? $1,000. The stuff you'll break because you haven't taken one apart before? An easy $500 to $1,000.

    You just wouldn't believe how fast it can add up on these cars.

    Somebody needs to do a leakdown test on this car.
     
  12. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    Paul
    Boy, that really sucks to see people get ripped off on cars like that. Looks like there is a paint problem with the passenger side top of door area too.

    We all think were smarter than everyone else sometimes, and we just wont listen to reason even from people who have been down the road ahead of us. Not to many years ago I would have jumped into this with both feet, because I know I could fix it. And we all know the prices to buy all the parts are blue sky and we are oh so much smarter than to buy into the costs blathered about, surely it wont cost that much.

    Well, to anyone watching this from the sidelines, listen to these voices of reason very intently. There are NO cheap Ferrari's. Someone is either going to buy that car and hack it together, or an enthusiast will buy it and fix it right. But just to make it stop smoking, even doing a booger job it will probably cost $5-10K in parts. The engines obviously tired. To fix it right your looking at a valve job, rings, bearings, gaskets, seals, probably overhaul the ignition, service the fuel system, possibly pistons, boring, and a lot of while your in theres. Thats why these guys say $35K, they aint kidding. DIY will still probably exceed $20K in parts and materials. And you havnt even started sorting out the rest of the car yet, and it needs paint work. Take it on as a labor of love, but dont expect to break even. Youll be upside down on it from day one.
     
  13. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    I take back my post that said you can't be too far gone at $8k. Well, you'll only lose $8k up front. What's it worth as a parts car?

    Ken
     
  14. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    8,887
    Central NJ
    I predict that it will go for $12k - $15k to someone with a dream and no clue.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    I hope this 5-speed can meet up with a similiarly-priced automatic needing coachwork and a gearbox ;), and the world can get a usuable 400i 5-speed out of two unusable cars.
     
  16. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    We should talk Preston into buying it. Then he can change horses and have a TON of extra parts to sell to take some of the pain out of his path.
     
  17. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    8,887
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    Preston has a big enough puzzle on his hands, he doesn't need to double up...

    Mitchell on the other hand... :D

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  18. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    VERY well said. I wish I'd written it. Good job Paul.

    You'd be amazed at how many lurkers send me a PM about this car or that car because they have read about my database. 95% of them are smarter than every owner here. They KNOW how to fix a Ferrari for 10% of what everyone else spends. :rolleyes:



    +1
     
  19. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
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    Alexander Leventhal
    Well, do the test but be advised it may very well pass. My 400i daily driver (#049773) has PERFECT leak down numbers (~3% on each cylinder) but also smokes and burns oil. Detailed investigation (re - partial disassembly) has revealed that the smoke is due to work valve guides and seals. How? Remember, the valves are closed during a leakdown test - so no air gets past the worn guide so long as the valve seats well in the head. Perfect Leakdown does NOT equal good valve guides!

    A
     
  20. Kingair33

    Kingair33 Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2006
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    San Francisco, CA
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    Alex
    +2 Maybe even higher. On eBay it seems people see a sub 20K Ferrari and freak.
     
  21. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
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    Well crap Alex!
    Ok so how can you test for worn guides?
     
  22. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    8,887
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    Dave,

    by partially disassembling the engine ;)

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  23. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
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    Kenneth
    Well, there's the old addage: smoke on acceleration is worn guides, smoke on deceleration is worn rings. Or is it the other way around? I think that's right...

    Ken
     
  24. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    #24 aleventhal, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ok - Let me see if I can write this in a way that makes sense. Let's say you have a car that smokes, but has good compression and leakdown numbers. First you want to verify that the smoke is not from rich running, etc. Now, in my case the car also consumes oil, so it is clear not just from the color of the smoke and the otherwise good running but also from the oil consumption and deposits on the spark plugs that it is buring oil (on four holes on one bank only). Once you know that the car is burning oil, you need to figure out how the oil is getting into the combustion chambers. You can be fairly sure it is not rings since compression and leakdown are good so on a 400i this leaves three major possibilities: Valve guides / seals, the crankcase breather system and the intake plenum gasket. In any event the test described below will indicate whether it is valves OR rings so nothing to worry about now. It is unlikely that the problem will be in the crankcase vent system, and if it is it should be immediately apparent as all of the plugs on the smoking bank should show equal oil deposits (two of mine were fine), and oil should be very apparent in the intake plenum, on the throttle butterfly, etc. So once this is ruled out the issues becomes is it valve guides, intake plenum gasket, or (unlikely because of the good compression numbers, although I suppose you could have good compression rings and bad oil control rings) rings.

    You see on a 400i the black crackle cover that appears to be the exhaust cam cover is actually the intake plenum cover - their air flows from the CIS unit through the J-Boot and into the intake plenum periscope which also contains the throttle butterfly and the intake from the crank case recirc system. See pic 1 and 2. The actual exhaust cam cover is actually in unit with the intake runners / velocity stacks. See pic 3 for the intake runners / exhaust cam cover and pic 4 for the same bank with this intake runner / cam cover removed. What you can see in these pics is that the intake ports in the head (the circular openings above the exhaust cam) are only seperated from the exhaust cams oil bath by a gasket. See close up of one intake port in pic 5. So, if this gasket becomes compromised the car can suck oil into the combustion chambers pretty easily.

    Ok, so now that this car is dissassembled this far we can ascertain where the oil is getting in - valves, rings (unlikely) or a compromise in this gasket. The way to do this is to pick a hole to test on (do each one that shows oil deposits on the plugs to be safe) and turn the motor so that the intake valve on the hole is open. Then, tightly plug both the intake port and the fuel injection port on that hole so that they are (more or less) airtight (i used rubber bottle stoppers, very effective) and pump pressurized air into the cylinder via the spark plug hole (just as you would do for a leakdown test) and watch / listen to where the air escapes - it will find the path of least resistance. If it holds pressure and does not leak down at all, the problem is likely the aforementioned gasket. If the rings are bad (again not likely with good compression numbers), air should escape out the crankcase breather, etc. This did not happen to me. In my case, the air escaped around the INTAKE CAM COVER GASKET. Think about this and remember the intake valve is open, but the port is plugged. The only way for air to get into the INTAKE cam box (on the other side of the open intake valve) and escape around the gasket is for it to go PAST the valve guide - hence, problem diagnosed (if not solved) - bad valve guides. I repeated this test on all holes, and it held pressure on the two without the oil deposited plugs and leaked through the intake cam cover gasket on the 4 that show signs of oil buring - so it is clear the guides are the culprit.

    Unfortunatley, this test can not be performed without some dissassembly, but it does clearly indicate where the smoke is coming from. Now, remember a 400i holds 19.5 quarts of oil (4.5 quarts between min and max on the dipstick) so buring oil and smoking is not that big a deal. My car runs MSD and does not foul plugs and runs great, so there is no big reason to repair it - just add oil at each fill up and ignore the smoke (all v12 Ferraris smoke, right?). Anyway, you asked how to tell the problem is valve guides, now you know...

    A
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  25. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 6, 2004
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    Alex,
    Did you pull your motor apart just to answer a question?

    Also, I don't understand why people bid on Ebay stuff like this so far in advance. Over 7 days to go with 13 bids!!!
     

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