400 or 400i

In 10 years you've put a few thousand dollars into the car? Now that's what I call well bought. In your case, you're right about the limited downside, but, again, for the rest of us, with every system change-out, we kiss those dollars good-bye.

 

As long as you define a "few" thousand as less than 10! One of the things that I like about this car is that most of the routine maintenance (oil changes, fluids,spark plugs, brake pads) I can do myself. Tires were biggies: $1,100. But not much else, other than $2K in cats (and, ahem, "test pipes") needed for CT emissions and deemed in my mind added on as part of the purchase price, has been really big $$$. It takes something like $150 for me to change the oil and filters with Mobil 1, but that is cheap compared to having a shop do it.

On the system change-out, well you're right of course. We all are one big system failure away from having to make a hard decision about an otherwise good car. I can't honestly say whether when that day comes that I will make the decision with my head (junk it or part it out and look for another) or with my heart, but I hope that I take the latter, holistic, viewpoint and say that it is the right thing to do to spend the money and fix it (be it engine, suspension system, whatever costs the big $$$$) to keep this fine car on the road.

John

 

28k for a 5-speed?
Now John, you're watching the market, you KNOW you'll get more than that for your 5-speed.

Real estate market stinks, stocks aren't giving it up, bond yields aren't there.
Ok listen up everyone in the US, if you have a running 5-speed, with good compression & leakdown, all systems working, I'll buy every one out there for $28k.
There are less than 30 of them left in the US, thats $840,000. I'd love to make a quick 20 to 25% on 840k.

 

I never bought this car thinking that it would ever make money for me. Quite the contrary, I just figured that at the purchase price I didn't care because it couldn't depreciate enough to ever be a concern.

As for how much I could sell it for now, that is irrelevant. I don't expect it to be on the market until my heirs decide that they don't want it and they want to sell it instead. For me, it is a keeper.

John

 

John bought his 400i about the same time that I got my 365 (which will be 10 years this thanksgiving).

I remember how ticked he was that mine only cost me $24k at the time...

 

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, it's one thing dollar wise to be able to buy a V12, but there is a difference (small to some) to be able to own and maintain one. A well maintained one is at a different level. Most, but not all of these cars, needs some sort of fiddling, usually deferred maintance issues. If all of the rubber hasn't been replaced yet (even though it may look great on the outside), it's probably rotten on the inside. But that is going to be the same for a V8 car of the same vintage now.

If you know what you're getting into, these are great rides, true gran turismos...

 

and yet that cool silver 365 gt4 in California didn't sell at $28,000. go figure. anyway, as far as this thread is concerned, carbed 400.
a stick would certainly be more interesting if it was your only Ferrari and used occasionally, but i really love my auto as part of the collection. it also get's used on a semi-daily basis ( 65,000 km in 6 years ) so the added comfort of the auto allows to drink my coffee in the morning and use my phone throughout the day. it is also the one my Dad is more comfortable in, so for that reason alone it is worth having. he drove the 400a to Montreal for the GP this year ( 1200km ) and really bonded with it. in fact, it might just be his retirement gift.

p.s. Nicois, if you're out there somewhere...we need to talk about the 365. i'm ready if you are, but i don't know how to contact you.

brett

 

Based on my own experience, when faced with a choice in the Ferrari world, the best advice is still "just get both"...

 

Nice. What kit is that?

 

I also thought that was odd.

LOL, how true. Sometimes all that shifting does get interupted by everyday life.

This is the best statement written on Fchat in a very long time. This is what its all about. Good for you Brett.

 

What I meant was that in a 400 series car, all the systems need to be kept in top working order. If for example you had a 68' Chevy and things were a little off here and there, life would go on. In a 400, things such as the cooling system, power steering, rear suspension system, ignition, etc don't work halfway. They work until they fail. Once they do fail, they tend to take someone else with them. My point is that you can't let servicing a 400 slide like you can on other cars.

 

it is a very robust model but it is an expensive car to run. i couldn't imagine a motor rebuild on a 400.
i just did a comprehensive motor teardown/rebuild of a 2 valve injected 308 motor and tranny and even that is $20,000( $12,000 in parts, $8000 in labour @ 50/hr ). and that was reusing whatever was decent after measuring. rings but no pistons, completely rebuilt heads, ignition, 2 syncros, bearings, driveshafts,etc.,etc.,etc. it looks brand new however, and it will breath like a dragon. we'll be turning over for the first time saturday.
but a 12,wow. i would hazard a guess that similar a v-12 motor and tranny rebuild would be $35-40,000 with the inevitable 'while you're there' stuff at a similar labour rate. if you paying $100/hr, lookout.
a 12 ain't for the faint of heart.

 

Joe.
In answer to your question (and PM), that car also is a Noble P4 (currently powered by a Renault PRV V-6) like mine.
However, it is far from a standard Noble P4. The original owner gave it a roof chop and changed just about every Noble body panel.
Even the shape of the radiator opening was reprofiled (from the original Noble '412P' shape to the 'correct' P4 shape).
It's probably the best Noble P4 replica in the world (even as it stands, with current Renault V-6 power).
You can see a photo of that car, beside my own (stock) Noble P4, for comparison, in the ************* gallery link I sent you:

http://www.*************/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=105157&bottom=30#post38

(4th picture on the right):
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But converting an existing P4 replica to Ferrari V12 power (or building one from scratch) is a sure-fire loss leader.

Wikipedia is correct, to a certain extent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P (and scroll down)

"Due to its great fame and good looks, more than a hundred P4 replicas of various design have been built.
A high-quality P4 replica built with genuine Ferrari engine (e.g. a 400i V12) may command as much as $200,000 ...."
(It may cost you that to have it built .... )
BUT
Recent sales results clearly show that whereas there is undoubtably a certain 'cachet' to having a Ferrari V-12 in the back of your P4 replica .... when you decide to part company with it - it frequently scares off potential buyers.
The last 3 Foreman P4's to have sold (all with 400i or 400GT motors in them) ....
All went for under £40K Pounds Sterling !!!

Here's the most recent one:

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=3676636&iSaleNo=15344

It might have been cheaper to buy yourself another P4 replica, Mr. P.
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Thanks. Fantastic looking cars. I am not sure I'd want to put a V12 in her though unless I was willing to go the FULL replica route (like the gent you mentioned above). Then, it would be a must. I just love the body shape to her. Easily one of the most beautiful cars Ferrari ever produced. Hmmm, it may be fun to build one and then put a FORD V8 into her just to tick off the purists and replica haters in this crowd.

 

That's already been done - using a Ford 351ci Cleveland, Joe.

Specifically this one: http://www.*************/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=105157&bottom=330#post336

(The same car which started that 30+ page thread on *************)

 

Ahhh, yes, but on this side of the pond? We have a whole North American crowd to offend!

 

When the CIS injection does go bad it can be more difficult to diagnose and costlier to repair than carburetors. New parts are NOT available any more.
Once the carbs are set up there is no reason for them to come "off-tune". With a slotted screwdriver you can fix the most common malady to any Ferrari with carburetors, the plugging of the tiny idle jet.
I have spent weeks trying to figure out a CIS injected 308, all pressures are good, flow is good, all there but low speed like parking lot driving and lumpy idle are plaguing me. If it were carburetors It would be much easier to figure out.
The engine noise from a 400 (carbureted)is reason enough to buy the car

 

I think (the) offence has already been taken, Joe.

See: http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-rcr70-p4-mkiv/17503-mk2-p4-rcr-hq-delivered.html?highlight=cleveland

If it isn't that one, I'm sure Fran said that one of his RCR P4 replicas was getting a 351 Cleveland.
Maybe it was his yellow demonstrator: http://race-car-replicas.com/rcrp4_photo_album.html

 

If you want a P4 experince, the 400 carb engine is your best bet.
I would think you would not want your p4 to sound like a T-70 (or mustang) by having a push rod v8 engine in it.

 

True, but then, who other than a Ferrari fan would ever know?!

Day late and a dollar short. Oh well...

But, back to the original thread (sorry for high-jack). I didn't realize the injection parts were NLA after all this time. Makes me wonder about my 308 QV now. Maybe a dumb question, but what do you do if they fail? Can the NLA parts be rebuilt or do you source alternatives? Are the V-12s just as robust as the V-8s if taken car of by the previous owners? IE: easily run well over 100K, etc?

 

ok I'm making another hijack....

The above is a VERY interesting question. Just how high mileage will these cars go without a major rebuild?
I just started a poll to see how many miles guys have on cars.

 

I would be really surprised if Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection parts are NLA since that system was widely used on tens of thousands of cars in the early to mid 80's, including BMW and Mercedes, not just the Ferrari 400i.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

John