400 i - CS | Page 2 | FerrariChat

400 i - CS

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by anxpert, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    Really? How is it that Smog Check II will not tolerate either of those two engine classes? I do not understand. A friend of mine is an Assemblyman and is a car enthusiast. He could take an interest in this.


    I like the Japanese engines because they are light and sophisticated. If one is a semi-purest, one might appreciate a 32 valve engine with four cams. Seeing as the Toyota 4 liter can be fitted in a TR7, I really wonder if there would be a problem fitting it into a 400. Admittedly, the Colombo is a 60 degree, not a 90 that almost all V8s are.

    One of the Nissan engines is 5 liter and produces 400 HP.

    While antexpert should do as he sees fit with his property, I for one don't much care for massive American rod power.

    Just for me, to take a work of art like the 400 (which suffers in value due to the enormous costs of rebuilding the V12 vs the value of the car itself) and re-engine it is perhaps more respectful to use an engine that produces similar power and is artful in its own way.

    Besides, there is a limit to what the rest of the car will tolerate without upgrades. I don't want to speculate on what sort of torque the diffy will take, I am sure it is not trivial, but 470ftlbs may be past its capacity.

    And the brakes? Is it correct to say that the 400 did not leave the factory with the most spectacular brakes, or that 30 years later they seem dated?

    All good arguments for an engine that will replicate the behavior of the original engine reasonably well.

    And I bet the Lexus drive train can be had cheaper than the LS7.

    Oh, and while it would be handy to mate the LS7 to the existing slush box, who would want to? GM certainly makes something far more sophisticated. I know that both Nissan and Toyota do. Swapping in a longitudinal engine/trans pair is silly easy, as one needs only drop the drive shaft out and have it adapted. A matter of a few hundred dollars.
     
  2. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    There is a torque tube between the transmission and differential. It is much more complex than bolting in a new engine and transmission and getting a new driveshaft. I'm just about positive no one has ever swapped the transmission in one of these cars. If it has been done I would like to see some pictures.
     
  3. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    #28 180 Out, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
    Ah, bench racing. I love it.

    It would be great to get the California Assembly interested in common sense again. They would only need to reinstate the "rolling exemption" that was actually in effect beginning in January 1997, whereby any car 25 years old or older was exempted from Smog Check altogether. In '97 that meant '72s and older. Each calendar year another model year dropped out, until the Legislature eliminated the rolling exemption in '00. That left us with just '75s and older exempt. Many other states have rolling exemptions, such that as of today '87s and older are exempt. There is no evidence that these states suffer from worse air quality because of it. However, the Greenists are too firmly in control in Cali for us to hope ever to escape the mad world they're building for us.

    The deal with emissions equipment is that *any* alteration of *any* emissions-related equipment is illegal "tampering." Only if the California Air Resources Board ("CARB") has issued an exemption to a given piece of aftermarket equipment can it be used on an emissions-controlled vehicle. When you go for your biennial Smog Check, in addition to passing the tailpipe sniffer test and proving that you car actually complies with the emissions standards applicable to its model year, you must also pass the visual. If you have any non-OEM equipment under the hood you must also have a CARB exemption sticker stuck somewhere on the inner fender or you will fail the visual.

    The E-Rod crate engines have EFI and ECUs and O2 sensors and pass late model emissions standards. But more importantly, they have CARB exemptions. Therefore they are legal in emissions-controlled vehicles. While you might be able to rig up a Toyota or Nissan V8 to pass the sniffer, it would not pass the visual. Therefore you can't put one in a California car that's subject to Smog Check II.

    All the LSx passenger car engines have aluminum blocks and aluminum heads. They weigh between 450 and 500 lbs fully dressed. The 505 hp 7 liter LS7 weighs 458 lbs. By comparison, AMG's 510 hp 6.3 liter V8 weighs 438 lbs. The AMG 5.4 liter supercharged V8 weighs 485 lbs. The BMW M5's 500 hp 5 liter V10 weighs 529 lbs. (http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/10288935-Hand-built-LS7) The E-Rod LS7 achieves its 505 horsepower peak at 6300. It's probably good for 7000 rpm. Of interest to old school tifosi, it's also got a dry sump oiling system.

    In other words, if you think a low production, hand built, EFI, all-aluminum, 505 hp, 7,000 rpm Chevy engine does not measure up to 4-valve dohc mass-produced, junkyard-sourced Japanese engines, on some scale of high tech values, you're really not being objective.

    I wonder if you realize the 400i weighs *4000 lbs*. When you're fighting that much mass -- off the line, coming out of a corner, or climbing a hill -- torque matters.

    It's a car. It doesn't feel respect or disrespect.

    I agree that 4-valve dohc engines are technically interesting and, if you can strip off all the accessories and let the long block alone display itself in all its mechanical prowess it can be a beautiful sight. Unfortunately you do not see the modern engines stripped down like that; buried under their coil packs and vacuum hoses and heat shields, they all look pretty much the same. And anyway, the LSx engines are technically admirable in their own right: weighing less than 500 lbs, very compact, extremely reliable, and capable of huge naturally aspirated output.

    An automatic will protect the rest of the driveline better than a stick shift will, but a standing start on some fat sticky tires with 470 lb-ft vs. 4,000 lbs. would not be a good idea for a driveline designed for 315 lb-ft. I have no doubt the Ferrari driveline will stand up to 470 lb-ft under normal use, but you wouldn't want to do a lot of smoky burnouts.

    The standard brakes are, I believe, substantially similar to what BMW put on the 2,200 lb. 2002. A stock 400i will do 150 mph. Unless you change the gearing, swapping in an engine with the same redline will give you the same top speed. As far as additional weight, based on the weights of the M-B and M5 engines mentioned earlier, I do not believe the E-Rod LS7 weighs significantly more than a 4.8 liter Ferrari; my guess is that it weighs significantly less.

    MSRP for the non-E-Rod LS7 is $11,500. (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-19181062/)

    Those modern trannies are quite a bit larger than the TH400 and probably require a new tunnel, if not the relocation of the frame rails. Think about it. GM had overdrive 4-spd trannies available in the 80's, with sufficient capacity to suit GM's own 4000 lb rear wheel drive cars and pickup trucks. Yet Ferrari never switched over. That suggests to me that they would not fit the existing hole without a lot of mods. With the modern computer controlled trannies you're also buying into additional complexity. That makes the case for retaining the TH400 attractive.
     
  4. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
    2,028
    Barrington, Ill. USA
    Full Name:
    Ross
    The only sensible engine to repower a 400i autobox car is a Chevrolet or other GM mated to the appropriate Buick ,Olds ,Pontiac bellhousing TH400. Anything else requires enough fabrication to make it as expensive as overhauling a Columbo.
    I'm no purist. A 500 inch Cadillac is just what a two ton plus car with a three speed slushbox needs.
    Limited traction and a soft transmission should keep the diff. happy.
    You think rolling on throttle at eighty is a pleasant rush now? ...........
     
  5. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
    2,028
    Barrington, Ill. USA
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Swapping in a longitudinal engine/trans pair is silly easy, as one needs only drop the drive shaft out and have it adapted. A matter of a few hundred dollars.[/QUOTE]

    You've never looked beneath a 400i, have you?
     
  6. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12

    Ah. Well. Credit Ferrari for taking the more sophisticated route.

    I still think it could be managed at a relatively low price, but it certainly means that a standard GM autobox makes more sense.

    Hopefully, a more sophisticated unit could be swapped in and still bolt to the torque tube.
     
  7. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    You've never looked beneath a 400i, have you?[/QUOTE]


    No, I have not. I was speaking too broadly.

    I have driven one, however. What a sweet ride!

    I'm coming around to the idea that the American Iron makes the most sense.

    Pity.
     
  8. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    #33 KevinMR@, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
    "

    Yeah. On my Stag I replaced the 3sp auto box (a Ford unit) with a Nissan Maxima 4sp (over drive) and yes, I had to cut up the trans tunnel and make it a bit bigger. The interior does not look any different.

    If I were to take on such a project, I'd certainly be looking to at least get the 4sp tranny in there.

    One certainly does not get to look at many 400s torn down for a rebuild.....

    One does not get to look at many 400s period. I just drool at the lines.

    If I came across one without the engine but everything else in place for less than $7k, I'd start to cry.

    And maybe I'd dump some American iron in there.

    Good chatting.
     
  9. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,367
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Leaving the Ferrari engine in makes the most sense...
     
  10. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    I will never dispute posts based on personal experience. If the Mr. Two people are able to get their hi-po engine swaps to pass Smog Check II that's great.

    A few observations, however. First, not every county is subject to Smog Check II. Rural counties are subject to no check at all. In these counties you can do whatever you want and never be detected (although it may be the case that you must furnish a Smog Check pass to the buyer at resale time, for the buyer to show to the DMV, or the buyer will not be able to register the car.) Even if you live in a Smog Check county, you can maintain a P.O. Box in an exempt county and register the car through that address. The down side is that this may expose you to a bigger problem if you're ever pulled over by a cop with a bad attitude or time on his hands. But it is possible that the swappers you write about either live in a Smog Check exempt county, or they're using the P.O. Box method.

    Second, people can know other people who know other people who, for a price, can get a Smog Check certificate for anything, if you know what I mean.

    Third, you *can* legally certify an engine swap from the same brand car of the same model year or newer. See Post #9 from this MR2 forum thread for a long letter from The Man (at the Bureau of Auto Repair) for the official steps to make this happen: http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?26151-2zz-ge-swap-legalities-in-CA&p=411936&viewfull=1#post411936 . It seems like there far too many ways to screw up in pursuing this process, such that I would only try it if I was working with someone who had made it happen before.

    In any event, the legal process described in this Post #9 would not apply to a swap of an other-brand engine into a Ferrari.
     
  11. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    #36 KevinMR@, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
    If there are differences in the rules from one CA county to another, it is news to me. All my correspondents live in LA, Orange County, San Diego County, Sacramento and San Francisco. So that is all the major urban population.

    You may certify an engine swap of any manufacture into a chassis of any manufacture, as long as the engine is as clean or cleaner than the engine it is replacing. Generally that also means the new engine needs to be no older than the engine it is replacing.

    Otherwise, why are we talking about putting a GM engine into a Ferrari as if it were possible and legitimate?

    I have read that BAR memo five or six times now, and am pretty comfortable that I understand it.

    A 400 could have almost any engine you could imagine stuffed into it and get a BAR referee to OK it.

    Certainly the GM unit discussed, assuming that all the current controls and sensors go in, and likewise a Lexus 400 unit, complete.

    Yeah. You need engine controls no less sophisticated than what Ferrari hung on this engine. And you would be hard pressed to find such primitive equipment.

    What are we talking, other than the carbs? MECHANICAL fuel injection and an air injector? Electronic ignition?

    Yes. It is complex. And there are countless ways to botch it. But it applies as much to a GM engine as to a Lexus lump.
     
  12. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, I suppose. You, however, might want to direct yours to anexpert, the Original Poster.

    Honestly? The chance that I will ever be faced with this choice is either slim or non-existent.

    I am pretty sure that anexpert does not intend to weld a chain to his V12 and use it as an anchor. If he does go thru with his intentions, that engine will be resurrected in another Ferrari.

    All is not lost.
     
  13. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    On further review I think you're right, that you can mix brands when swapping engines.

    I found the original of the BAR info here -- http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResources/07_AutoRepair/Engine_change_guidelines.html -- and as you said it doesn't rule out cross-brand swaps.

    I also found this CARB page -- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm?PF=Y -- which covers many topics. Search for "engine changes" and that section covers complete swaps.

    The thing that sets the GM LSx E-Rod series apart is these engines come with a CARB Executive Order out of the box, which would guarantee that there are no problems provided the install is done correctly.
     
  14. KevinMR@

    KevinMR@ Rookie

    Jul 29, 2012
    12
    Your argument gets stronger each time you post.

    Although a crate engine sure is pricey.
     
  15. OttoB

    OttoB Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2013
    699
    Palm Beach, FL
    Whatever happened to this car? I did a search to look over brake rebuild and stumbled on this...
     

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