Having searched for an acceptable 4 seater, I decided to embark on a 400i project. The vehicle I acquired is a previously noted 1984 400i # 51147, 65K miles purchased from a gentleman in Napa, CA. After pondering over the purchase for the last week, I've convinced myself that it will be a good project car, as for 14K it seems to be a good foundation. With the exception of an intermittent starting/ running problem which seems to be CDI ( already purchased a MSD Digital 6 Al ) related, this 400i is very smooth, no smoke, no overheating, good oil pressure car. I've driven it for a few miles, and seems to have plenty of power and seems to be behaving . I've decided to take a few CS derived features for this build / restoration, such as the interior with an alcantara dash, a new CF console plate and minimal updating of switches and controls. The self leveling suspension is working fine, but I will most likely switch over to coil overs on all four corners and upgrade the brakes. I will most likely re-spray in black, and have not decided if I will keep the interior tan or switch over to black. Should someone be interested in the original 12 cyl engine ( don't shoot me ), I am considering a GM E-Rod Engine. In similar fashion to my Spider Stradale build, I am building a car that fits my overall criteria, within what I think will be another 10 - 15 K before I'm done. Seems reasonable for a unique looking car such as the 400i. Look forward to the comments and suggestions ! Still haven't figured out how to rotate i-Phone picture ...my apologies ! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
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I can understand why you might want to put an American V8 into the car if your Ferrari engine is trashed or missing but why would you want to get rid of a perfectly functioning Ferrari engine? While it is true that you might sell it for the amount that you paid for the entire car if it is demonstrably in good shape, you still look to be out of pocket that additional money to buy and install the V8 but now you will have a Frankenstein car and you will never recover that investment when it comes time to resell the car.
I vote no on the engine swap, but it's your car. In the muscle car hobby we call this restomodding. But even in the restomodding branch of the old car hobby, very few owners would junk a running numbers matching engine from any old high performance car. A factory original stove-bolt 6 in a '69 Camaro, yes. But not a 350 or a 396. Swap it out and store it, maybe. But few would pull a hi-po numbers matching engine and sell it off. But again, it's your car. So which E-Rod engine are you thinking of? I've never heard of this tradename before -- I'm kind of out of touch -- but I see there are three of them: a 6.2 liter 430 hp LS3, and 7 liter 505 hp LS7, and a supercharged 6.2 liter 556 hp LSA. Which one do you have in mind? I would worry about the Ferrari's rear end standing up to anything but the LS3. I have a 5.7 liter LS1 in my '04 GTO automatic and it's a great engine. Compact, but very torquey *and* very rev-happy. It tops 6000 rpm with ease, although I've never tried it in top gear. A lot like a 4.8 liter dohc V12, come to think of it, but without that inimitable 12-cyl sound. About the cost of a restomod, I have gone that route with a '65 Mustang fastback I bought for $2500 in 2001: various suspension packages, and 6-point roll bar, disc brakes, T-5 5-spd tranny, rear end swaps, Watts link, etc. I also have made the mistake of keeping a ledger on almost every dollar spent, and even though I've spent almost nothing on the car during the past four years -- and I've never done any bodywork or paint -- the total is more than $32,000. And the car as is sits is worth $15K on a good day. The problem with modified cars is you can only get good money for them from someone who has exactly the same taste as you do. Keeping it stock keeps it more of a commodity, where every potential buyer knows what to expect.
Keep the input coming ! I must clarify that I have not considered the purchase of the 400i as an investment or re-sale value, but as a four seater that appeals more to me than an off the shelve every day driver. I projected / budgeted 30K for the project with "0" expectations on any ROI considerations. When I purchased the car I was actually expecting the worst, hoping only for a non rusted solid body as a starting point , hence considering a V-8 swap from the onset, as I was certain " for the " buy " price " I would be looking at cars with engine related issues. Even though I was assured by the seller that the car ran very well, I am one to always see the glass half empty, and to a certain degree realistic as to what it takes to keep a Ferrari on the road as I own 4 other F-Cars. Having had a week to go over the car, the seller was quite correct that this was a strong running car with very few issues as the engine and drive train seem to be in great working order, with the exception of the intermittent starting problem. Nevertheless, my projected use for the 400i contemplates quite a few miles per year, as we will be using it for business related activities, thus exposing the engine to miles that will result in ultimate Ferrari type expenditures. Obviously the option still exists that I just mothball the engine, but I would much rather see the engine go to a 400i that will be preserved vs. a known destiny of hard work for the 400i I plan to build. Again, input from fellow F-Chatters is always appreciated, and while we may agree to disagree on certain topics it makes for an interesting hobby. If you follow my Spider Stradale build you will definitely consider me " nuts " ..... but hey, we only live once !
Oh No!! It seems that it would take some effort to post pix upside down. ;o) My initial conclusion was he's not too concerned about that...but he beat me to the punch. All that being said & even though some think of it as sacrelig., there's got to be a 400i out there that could use one...even Steven.
No,...but it'll be quicker & faster. W/o Ferruccio getting into the mix w/Enzo, F-car HP/performance wouldn't have risen the way it did through the 512 evolution. Think about it, the old 365's topped @ 340 horse, the 412's went no further. Sure FI challenged things a little bit but it was fairly understood in the F1 development, that's a lot of yrs. w/o pushing further.
Its your car - but may I add my comment. That engine in your picture looks well maintained and clean. The Columbo engine is renowned as being 'bullet proof' and has a lineage dating back to F1 cars of the 1950s - it is a tried and tested engine. With the Auto box it will hardly be stressed. My opinion is this; use the car as a it is, change the oil every month, and if anything does blow up and is an 'uneconomic repair' in 'your opinion' then swap out the engine. Just re read your post and you state you have a budget of $30k to swap the engine with a V8 - so why not fit another Ferrari 400 V12 -when/if the current one blows - they are not that expensive as owners sell to breakers even when the headers blow? I used my last 400i as a daily driver for nearly 2 years with nearly 90 000miles on the clock with no engine issues. Regards Andrew
Two comments: 1. If the engine is good, keep it - if used regularly and properly, they are very reliable. A. Leventhal (a member here) used one daily on the streets of NY, NY until last year - no real problems. 2. If you are going put an American V8 in a 400, why not get a car that already has the swap - this way an intact car is preserved and an existing car with a V8 is improved. 3. If you are going to swap engines (hopefully using approach number 2) have you considered putting in a 550 Maranello or 456 GTA engine in it? There are engines floating around out there and, in my opinion, it will make for a much cooler engine swap. Regards, Art S.
All above suggestions considered and a possibility. I will first address the intermittent stalling, and move on to other items on the car. There is no great rush on my part to pull out the engine and replace....just getting my feet wet with the 400i and determining future causes of action, focusing on suspension, interior and paint. Who knows by the time I get to the engine , I will have been convinced to leave that bid bad boy in it's designated place. I will try to get to the MSD this weekend and advise ...Thank you for the suggestions and comments ! Again, my expectations where so minimal, that the engine swap seemed a logical approach.
i have a 400i cabriolet,and i am interested in how yours runs with the v8.i was thinking of dropping in a z06.thx,stuart
Astonishing to see this different approach in the U.S., to see this 'ease' in talking about engine swapping - either to a U.S. V8, a Z06 or even a 550 Maranello. Among european Ferraristi, as far as I see, there aren't any of these discussions because all that matters is originality, originality and finally ... originality! In Europe, I think you would get stoned to death even daring to talk about this kind of stuff ;-)) For my 400GT I was thinking aloud about changing the brake system to a modern one which would give an adequate slowdown and about tuning the engine / carburetors. The reaction is a unique cry of "Sacrilege!" But even when I'm totally relaxed in respect of tuning and modifying, I wouldn't really change the engine itself - first because it's a marvel of ingeniosity and especially because there's only a very limited number of surviving 400's left out there. And I regret the lost of each of them: what makes a Ferrari a Ferrari? It's the engine!
A couple of points I'd like to make regarding engine swapping and upgrades to 400s; 400s aren't collectible and likely will not be, at least not in my lifetime, so originality means little to resale. Case in point would be the V-8 swapped car recently sold(supposedly) on e-bay that brought near what some original cars do while "originals" are being cannibalized to build replicas. If someone wants to add better brakes it would be a big plus. Nobody will ever be genuflecting before a 400i, they are and always will be pedestrian among Ferraris. Even Enzo had no reverence for his cars. If somebody wishes to change their own cars engine, so what? In the unlikely event that these become fantastico preziosa someone will find a way to reunite the proper drivelines and cars. The OP is proposing a practical swap, I doubt he'll be adding a hood scoop and lots of Scuderia shields.
But I really like the hood scoop (LOL ). I do believe that sometime we get caught up on forums such as F-Chat looking for a type of approval from other participants on work done to our cars. Some of grew up working " wrenching " on our cars as a hobby and the pure enjoyment of what we could possibly accomplish with our perceived knowledge and set of tools regardless of the type or brand of car. No disrespect for others on their opinions and views, Nevertheless, if upgrading my brakes created a dilemma, I would reconsider my overall perspective on subjective VS objective. I appreciate the opinions !
A small reference of my install of the MSD-6AL Ignition : Removed the 3 original anchor point for the stock unit, fabricated an aluminum mounting plate, as the bolt pattern for the MSD-6AL lines up with the edges of the original bracket. I installed the aluminum mounting plate with Stainless Steel hardware with .750 " stand-offs / spacers, so the nuts on the isolators would not interfere with the mounting brackets. Connected to original harness with a new Amp male plug. The most difficult / trying process was the coil*replacement, as I had to loosen the wiper motor and wiper arm to gain any kind of access. Overall job time ... about 4 hrs. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'm in favor of the swap as I someday want to have a coffee table made out of a V12 Ferrari engine. Need extra engines floating around for that to come true. Sadly as alluded to earlier, the cheapest was to get a V12 engine may be to buy a whole car.
I drove a 400 back in the '80's, when I had a job in Beverly Hills at a rental place that featured absurdly expensive cars. My word, what a handsome car. But I am weak for anything styled by an Italian. Very weak. Toyota/Lexus make an amazingly efficient, smooth, reliable, and cheap to obtain 4 liter V8 that puts out 300 hp. And is fuel efficient, if I did not make that point. "The 1UZ-FE was voted to the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 1998 through 2000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_UZ_engine Seriously, a DOHC engine that is smooth as can be? Admittedly not a hot rod solution to the expensive V12. What is a stinker is that Toyota never mated it to a manual transmission. If a 4sp autobox of very modern design suits you, one that shifts intelligently and crisply, this may be a route to travel. Or if you want crazy, I know that a guy in Australia has swapped one into a Triumph TR7 mated to a Supra trans, which is a tough bird. Supras are HEAVY cars, the same weight as a 400. He had to have a bell housing custom made. For a tiny fraction of the cost of rebuilding the Ferrari engine, I dare say. Or while we are chatting. "a twin turbocharged Toyota 2JZ-GTE making 276 hp (206 kW; 280 PS) and 318 lb·ft (431 N·m) of torque for the Japanese version" was mated with a 6 spd manual in the later Supras. A large straight six would actually imitate the performance and sound of a V12 better than would a V8. There is something smoooth about straight 6's. Hey, at least all your fasteners would be metric. My Triumph Stag with a Datsun Z engine does not have that advantage. Seriously. A Lexus V8 in an Italian luxo sedan? Yum. Please. Don't do it. I might yet find my 400 and beat you to it.
Oh, and look up Nissan V8s. Just nuts-o efficient. And compared to a Columbo V12, really quite common and cheap to buy.
You cant be serious! Improving on a classic 30 year old engine is a bit meek. Go and play with the real deal in modern racing engines and leave our nice few left beautiful sounding machines alone. In there cars that they were designed for.
BTW. Nissan built some of those V8s as flat plane engines. Let's see: four cams, 32 valves, flat plane crank. Sounds like a Ferrari to me. Add the variable cam timing. Those Nissan engines are nearly the most efficient engines ever developed. Certainly so when you consider the number produced. And there are 6 and 7 sp automatics to match with them, although I hate to think what you might need to do to the trans tunnel to wedge one in!
Oh, should have shared my photo of the Datsun Z engine in my Triumph Stag, hopefully I manage the attachment process: Image Unavailable, Please Login
1. Anxpert's posts to this thread showed him coming to appreciate the magic of the Ferrari engine, although I would say he's leaning against keeping it for the high mileage uses he has in mind. 2. The recommendations of Toyota and Nissan V8s ignore two things. First, these engines won't work for you if the car is subject to California Smog Check II regulations. The 7 liter GM E-Rod LS7 will. Second, the GM LSx engine family is easily the equal of any dohc four valve V8, even if you could find a 7 liter version of your favorite brand. They are snappy off idle, with 470 lb.-ft. and 505 horsepower in the LS7 version, and they can pull to 6,500 rpm in every gear all day long for 100,000 miles with no maintenance needs other than oil changes. Plus, these engines are very compact, their pushrod designs eliminating the great bulk of the cylinder head castings and cam covers of a dohc. Also, I believe the LS7 will bolt right up to the TH400 trans that's standard in the 400i.
