400 Auto | FerrariChat

400 Auto

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by detwin, Aug 6, 2012.

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  1. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    Hello to everyone, new to this board; just had a quick question. I've been looking around for a few months for a 400 Automatic any year is fine; low mileage; I've seen them range anywhere from 17-30k. Is e-bay the best place to search, or a simple google search from the last month? Do most get listed on this forum? What I am wondering is; I've seen quite a large spread in prices so what is the general consensus on the average these have been selling for recently? Sorry for rambling; I'm ready to buy just wanted to get some advice, I'm new to all of this. Thanks!
     
  2. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day detwin,

    There is a very recent thread talking about the market...

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377542

    My thoughts are that there is no definitive market price because the number of car sold and are available are relatively small. Secondly not all cars are in the same general condition and comparative pricing/trending is also difficult. In other words a car's current/past condition and maintenance history factor heavily into the price... Thirdly your location also affects the price too (the European and Australian prices are higher than in North America).

    That being said, the above thread does have a synopsis post by "180 Out" that does list some recent sale prices as well as some no sale prices which can serve as a general indicator for you.

    Lastly, if you update your profile to indicate where you are located, perhaps someone may post some leads for you.

    Best of luck in your search!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  3. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    Thanks Sam! I really do appreciate it! I'm in the Tampa area and I updated my profile to reflect that! Some of my buddies think I'm nuts, but I've always loved the Ferrari 400 and fell in love with it when I saw it in person. Is it just perception that these are very expensive to maintain even if they are just used as a second car? Have the forum bookmarked so will keep an eye on here!
     
  4. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    detwin

    You mention low mileage as a preference. To me that usually means a troublesome car or it has sat somewhere far too long. I prefer to buy cars that are driven. That tells me the car is reliable and taken car of.

    I bought my car 6 years ago and it had lots of little issues. I have been driving it about 4000 miles a year and I keep solving long standing issues. It is getting more reliable every year as I implement solutions rather than fixes. Car had 37,000 miles when bought and is now close to 60,000 miles. So is that mileage good or bad for you?

    Ken
     
  5. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    Hi Ken; I assumed that the problems were occurring due to higher mileage; I believe I was reading that somewhere; but what you are saying makes sense. Are you looking to sell or you were just asking?
     
  6. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    #6 brettski, Aug 7, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
    i believe i know of a fantastic 1981 Series 1 400i in San Fran...and while it would be a little more than high end of the price range you've detailed, it would be well worth it.

    i've sent the owner the link and hopefully he'll chime in...the car is a gorgeous, fresly resprayed Silver over black leather example...

    with tons of money, sweat and tears invested.

    oh, here it is...http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=8903

    it's worth far, far more then what the owner is asking for it...and if there are any questions i can answer for you, don't hesitate to ask.
     
  7. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,629
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    What is puzzling to me is that Stefano told me that he is selling the car because he has not been able to get it certified for California registration.

    Since many 400is have been certified and registered in California and it appears that he spent a lot of money to get the emissions cleaned up, this is a real mystery to me.
     
  8. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    Hi Brettski; its higher than I wanted to spend but I appreciate you posting the info; not to crazy about the black interior either. I am ready to buy but will wait for the "right" deal if it comes along. Thanks again
     
  9. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    i know, i know...i don't fully understand it either...

    what's on the wish list ?
     
  10. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    almost any color on the exterior; love the dark blue saw that in person once; but all the colors are great; Interior; pretty much anything except black.
     
  11. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    detwin
    No I am not selling at the moment and my interior is black!

    I have been looking at 348's and found the opposite issue with two local cars. One car has 10,000 miles and was really sound and in great shape except AC not working. The other with 58,000 miles was smoking, "check engine" light on, interior a mess, rust, etc. I think the low mileage one sold very quickly and the other has been with the private dealer for a year and he may never sell it like it is.
    Ken
     
  12. detwin

    detwin Rookie

    Aug 6, 2012
    7
    Tampa, FL
    Ken, maybe I will have to settle for black. lol Is it true that the 400's are very expensive just for regular maintenance or only if a certain part is needed? I've read on another forum that if they aren't driven as a main car they are fairly reliable; but others say otherwise. I understand going in that there will be issues I just don't know if I will have to put the same amount of $$ back into it or not? Sorry for these newbie questions.
     
  13. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    Don't want to hijack the thread, but my understanding is that Stefano's car is a case study on why one should be very wary of trying to bring a gray market car into California, unless it was already passed by the Bureau of Auto Repair in a previous life, left the state, and now you're just bringing it back in. (In this case, the car is already in the DMV's data base, and all you need to do is pass Smog Check.) I believe Stefano was never able to get past the independent laboratory/BAR referee stage. As I recall the narrative, the lab puts the car in a closed room and runs the engine and samples the emissions over a length of time. I believe Stefano's car went through this process twice, at great expense each time, and was not able to pass. That is why he is selling now.

    I think you need to have your head in the $35,000 price range, at least in terms of "the right car." In my very humble opinion the market today is at the absolute bottom for these cars, making it unlikely that your resale value will be lower than your purchase price. It may be much higher. Therefore the only costs of ownership are routine maintenance, addressing the "needs" that the car has when you buy it, and addressing such unexpected needs as may come up in the future. Starting out with the right car will minimize your financial exposure to the "needs." Therefore if you've got the scratch, buying a no-needs car is the way to go.
     
  14. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,629
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    Define "very expensive" to maintain.

    Remember that these are:

    1. A Ferrari
    2. A V12 Ferrari
    3. A 25+ year old V12 Ferrari
    4. A 25+ year old V12 Ferrari that may have a lot of deferred maintenance issues
    5. A 25+ year old V12 Ferrari that may have a lot of deferred maintenance issues that may have sat around for long periods of time without being driven.

    The difference in purchase price between a dog that hasn't been driven or maintained and one that has been maintained regularly or restored is not very much, so look for a car with a known ownership history and maintenance records.

    Some parts, such as body parts and certain lenses are hard to find or expensive.

    Some parts are not so bad and the technology has no computers so owners with some mechanical aptitude can do a lot of routine maintenance themselves, like fluids, brakes, spark plugs etc. The Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injected versions use a system that was also used on thousands of early 80's Volvos, Mercedes and BMWs. My friend who owns a gas station in town can adjust the settings in a few minutes.

    Trouble areas are electrical fuse and relay panel overheating ($1,250 plus labor for a rebuilt, stronger panel), self-leveling suspension (some people replace with coil overs), TRX wheels and tires (which can be replaced with inch sized).

    Most of the other stuff is standard mechanical car stuff. Obviously an engine rebuild of a V12 will be $$$$$ but the drivetrain is pretty rock solid. Labor costs under the hood are high because a lot of stuff needs to be moved to get to certain things, like a starter motor.

    The sump holds 19 quarts so an oil change with synthetic oil like Mobil 1 can seem expensive.

    These cars are not cheap to maintain by any means but the offset is that they are pretty much fully depreciated so your annual depreciation costs are about zero, IMO.
     
  15. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    detwin

    My costs are lower than many since I do all my own work; this forum has several contributors that tackle more on the car than I would! I will not go inside the motor myself and that day will come sometime. I fix urgent matters as they arrive and add less urgent matters to my winter list. I take the car off the road about Thanksgiving time and have it ready for early spring. I usually accumulate parts in advance and use this forum to get questions answered before or during the job. You have to have a shop manual and parts book to do your own work! (though parts pages are available on line)

    Cost of parts is an issue especially body parts, lenses, glass, etc. Excluding the engine, the mechanical/electrical parts fit into a few categories: used on many F-cars or Maserati's (front suspension), common parts on many more common cars like BMW (electrical and fuel injection) and then the 400 only parts (power steering pump, rear suspension). For the latter category there are several businesses that deal in used parts and people on this forum that are parting a car or have useable spares. In the last category people have also engineered alternate parts that MAY be upgrades; none of these solutions are cheap but they beat the NLA or unobtainium answer.

    Some examples: 1) The power steering gear is a ZF unit. ZF in US used to rebuild them but no longer does. I do not know of that service in Germany but it is possible. I found a NOS gear that the specialist wanted $4500! I obtained a used one that is working nicely for $1500. Cheap? Not by Toyota standards. 2)The mirror switch is NLA at F-dealers and last sale price was $140, It is a common BMW part for about $45 new and probably $15 used. 3) door seals and bumpers seem to only be available from Italy via a US supplier.

    I put my miles on car over long weekends not every day. This gives me time to find parts at 'best available' price. Eurospares in UK seems cheaper and better stocked on many items even with shipping. T. Rutlands and Ricambi America have most normal and lots of not so normal parts at lower cost than a dealer.

    I hope you are getting the picture.
    Ken
     
  16. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2003
    8,880
    Central NJ
    #16 ArtS, Aug 7, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
    Detwin,

    I'm not sure what your expectations are. Any car of this sort that has sat around for years and has differed maintenance issues will be a small fortune (i.e. higher than the purchase price) to make right. A rule of thumb is that a good driver will cost you $10K in little fixes shortly after you buy it while most eBay discount specials will cost you a LOT more and take a LOT of time.

    I didn't follow the link, but I'm pretty sure I know which car Brett referred to; a car like that will be a little more expensive to purchase but will save you a lot more than the increased purchase price in reduced repair costs.

    Another way to look at it is (and I haven't checked this thought, but I'm pretty confident that it’s pretty accurate) to think of maintaining a 400 in the same light as maintaining a highest end 30 year old (out of warrantee) Mercedes. If you pick up a creampuff, it will still require work and parts but it will not be too bad. If it is a rusty, beat, fright-pig, it will cost you a fortune and take a long time to put right. This will be a miserable experience if you were not anticipating it and didn't budget for it.



    While I do not have a 400, I do speak from experience on this.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  17. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    is that right ? wow...i'm surprised, because that car had a new exhaust system with new cats and i would have thought with a little CIS tweaking it could be made to pass...

    it's a very upsetting scenario and i feel terribly for him.
     
  18. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    posts 13-16 represent the very best advice you'll get anywhere, from anyone.
     
  19. SCousineau

    SCousineau Guest

    Jul 17, 2004
    3,652
    Full Name:
    S Cousineau
    I have a 400i. That is 100% correct on all counts. I will add that you have to want to own a 400i and love the unique character that comes with the car.

    -sc
     
  20. Stefano1

    Stefano1 Karting

    Dec 28, 2008
    53
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Stefano Bini
    Hi there.
    The car actually did pass CA smog. Sal was able to make it happen. It required an air pump to be installed and connected to the exhaust and with the new cats it did fine. However, the California BAR sticker is what is missing. And that is Bureau of Automotive Repair, not the local establishments' advertising logo. The primary requirement there is that the car sit in a room for 24 hours and have its emissions measured. I posted about all this some time back. To do that, and pass, the car needs to have some extra work done above and beyond what I have already done. The issue there is that if the car does not pass, the $3000 fees for the service are not re-imbursed, you just have to do it over and over again.
    So there is just a point where you have to call it a day unless you have endless funds.
    This car was most recently registered in Michigan and it can be registered anywhere other than CA.
    At this point, I'd just like to basically trade the car for another car. I've just been too busy to post it on ebay or anywhere else... I'll get round to it. The car is pretty gorgeous, particularly to those who like that color combination.
     
  21. Stefano1

    Stefano1 Karting

    Dec 28, 2008
    53
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Stefano Bini
    So, I am not sure how to "quote you" here my apologies, but you are basically correct except that I did not actually run the car through the "room" at all but Sal has assured me that it will not pass that test without further modifications and I am pretty sure he is right. The reason I am selling it is entirely related to the issue of registration. I am, however, happily driving aorund with dealer plates and, so far, it has not been an issue. I actually think it would be more problematic if I had out of state plates on the car since in CA you have one month to replace them. For that an officer can just pull me over and issue a ticket which I could then not rectify. With dealer plates, they just assume I "just" bought it and am waiting for new plates and do not seem to care that much... So, for now.....
     
  22. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,450
    North Pole AK
    You guys that live in CA have to put up with a bunch of crap to live there. I have visited many times but couldn't live there myself. Hope you find another car that works. The 24 hour test is to check for evaporative emissions?
     
  23. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Stefano,

    My apologies for the thread diversion... Do the Police actively enforce or watch for out of state (or out of Country) plates? I ask, as I have a friend which has never been pulled over or even questioned with his Canadian Car with Canadian license plates even though the car has been in CA for over 3 years now (he is a "snowbird" and is there just under 6 months per year, but leaves his car at his property down there)... For whatever reason the Police do not seem to care... Just curious, as I mentioned to him that I believe he is supposed to register the car there, but he has never gotten around to it..

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  24. Stefano1

    Stefano1 Karting

    Dec 28, 2008
    53
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Stefano Bini
    Yes, its an easy easy ticket for them and, as you know, they are on quotas, so you don't want to be driving at the end of the month with a tickatable issue (headlights out, tail lights etc). They need a reason to pull you over and they will commonly do so for registration not being up to date (they are color coded so really easy to read) or for licence plate being out of state, especially if the plates are from a neighbouring state where taxes are lower, like Nevada. Both of those count as valid reasons to pull you over. That said: like with everything, sometimes you get lucky. The type of car also matters, as does how you drive. If they pull you over, they actually can, technically, impound the car. Right then and there, leaving you stranded with a ticket in your pocket. I can see that happening if you happen to, say, be driving over 75 mph or have a + breathalizer test from that third glass of wine. You then need to show valid registration to get the car out. For most cars, like your friend, you take a day off work, get the car registered, pay your fees, pick up the car ($125/day last I checked at city pound) and go home. Since this car cannot be registered like that in CA, the real risk becomes an endless $125/day fine until I can find some judge to let me pay some fine and get the car out... who knows how long that will take or what it would require. Plus, I don't need the hassle of all this entails. So the car is for sale.
     
  25. Stefano1

    Stefano1 Karting

    Dec 28, 2008
    53
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Stefano Bini
    one more thing: techincally, I think you have one month to have your car re-registered in CA. I think they time it from the time you get the ticket even though in theory it is from when you brought the car into the state.
     

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