sorry Gerrit, i must be missing your point...what's your point, exactly ? for your benefit, i'll make mine a little clearer...i used my car as an example to present to the OP, who claimed to know where the market is... he might and i wanted to know his thoughts on this car...and if i could have added 4 more examples of 365 GT4's that are in the condition he described, i would have... but i can't...hence, my point.
hey Dave, i hope all is well ! you know i have a lot of respect for what you have to say on the matter... but, i humbly think we need to put a finer point on this because, unless i misunderstood, we're talking 365's and, i assumed, manual 400's. how does that effect the number's you mentioned...or does it...it must...
thanks ! do you know what the Judge (Judge4RE, right...Eric) was asking for his 365 ? to me at least, he was very clear that it only had routine maintenance during 8 years of ownership, nothing major, and he was equally clear that the price was $65K. exactly where it should, if not cheap, when compared to a mechanically indentical GTC/4. don't give'em away guys...every V-12 2+2 that preceded went through the same period...and every one has rebounded...why would these be the exception to the rule ? keep'em before you give'em away...and be the envy of every guy that doesn't have a front engined V-12 Ferrari.
Nope you didn't misunderstand, my mistake Brett. Frankly I typed faster than my feeble brain can function and forgot we were on 365's.
Well here's my opinion, and please note it is of little value! I think there is a big difference between the 365s & 400s. There is almost a dividing line between the two cars that divides old from new. I would say the 365 is the last of the vintage and the 400 is the first of the new. Now in the real world there is a huge difference and that is due to the number 1975. In a lot of places in the US, 75 and older equalls no IM test. If you live in a place like CA or really any place that has these tests a 75 or older car eliminates the huge pain in the butt IM issue. This is why I looked for a 75 or older car. In my opinion for this reason alone the 1975 365 should have a considerable price premium over 1976 and newer cars, and yes I know they made a 76 365. If I had two identical 365s, one a 75 and one a 76 I personally would pay quite a bit more for the 75 to avoid the IM bs.
Not sure I even know what an "IM" test is but I suspect that California is and always will be the most difficult place to get an older Ferrari registered, at least in some of the counties. For the rest of the country the cutoff for emissions testing is around 20 or 25 years, as it is in Connecticut. The 25 year cutoff date is now 1987 and each year another cohort of 412s become exempt for nearly all of the rest of the country. So, except for California (and maybe just part of California) the rest of the country sees the principal difference between 365s and 400s as being in the number of taillights. I feel sorry for Californians for many reasons, of which unreasonable treatment of vintage cars is one.
thanks Sam, have a great long weekend ! thanks Aiden, Marrone Metallic...which was as close as we could get to Marrone Colorado. take care
'What is the market value? Only what someone is prepared to pay and the seller prepared to accept under the circumstances at that time.' You could not have put it any better, spot on.
well, yes...but while we're oversimplifying it, i'll add a thought in the spirit of what i've been trying to say...and that's, 'whoever has the gold, makes the rule'.
I know this is off topic vis-a-vis 365 GT4s and 400s, but some prices we do know from the real world are that Anxpert bought an '84 400i auto for less than $14K in January -- http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340883 -- and I bought my '83 400i auto for $15,000 in February, and that guy in Cleveland sold his '83 400i auto spyder conversion to stuarts for $28,500 -- http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354377 -- http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370854. I'm sure other posters can think of other actual sales, but those are three I remember off the top of my head. There's also this '77 400 auto, that a dealer in Monterey was offering in the Bay Area Craigslist for $27,900, and which got bid up to $21,600 on eBay, reserve not met: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365880&highlight=ebay . Still available for $27,900: http://mohrimports.com/view_inventory_details.php?car_id=426 Here is an '84 400i 5-spd that got bid up to $23,100 on eBay in May, reserve not met: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-400GT-400i-5-Speed-Manual-Transmission-/190671001737?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c64e09889 It belongs to Frrarinut: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208371&highlight=ebay&page=6 . I wonder if he ever sold it.
Putting the RHD market(Aussie anyway) into perspective(only cos nobody else has). There are several for sale:400GT injected(rusty but roadworthy and registered)$34K,it's been for sale for 2 or 3 birthdays,green 365 $68K it has a 'hotdog'exhaust system,a lovely(I am told)365 for an eyewatering $89K at a dealer that I'm told could be had for about $60K. They are the manual cars,I'm not interested in listing the auto's but some drivers' have been starting at about $26K.
........................and you STILL have'nt offered me folding stuff for it.... Well it's in the paintshop and the price has gone up!
Some asking prices from Ferrari Market Letter (23rd June 2012) 412 5 Speed "virtually flawless" $69.9 K ask 400 5 Speed euro model 1983 , 1 owner 55k ask 400 5 Speed 1984 2 owner 39.5K ask As a general observation, ( not in relation to the cars above ) the price gap between "good" and "poor" cars is quite significant, because the cost of bringing a poor car up to scratch in most cased not financially viable. Anyone with a clue about these cars will simply pay "the money" for a good one and enjoy it. There were never that many manual cars ( eg 27 RHD 412's) , and of the cars left, only a proportion are in "good" condition, and how many of those are actually for sale. Bottom line is if you want a car, there not many to choose from. If the condition of Bretts car is as good as it looks in the photo's, a knowledgabe buyer would value it near the top of the scale of asking prices. M
Starting this fall, I'm taking the 308 back to bare metal (wrapping up doing that with the Bentley now, waiting for a few pieces of wood to be redone as the first pass wasn't to my standards), then will do the same with the 365. Should I decide to sell it after the work, the price will be further north of the $65k mentioned above.
Just to put some things in perspective, from the other side of the pond: 61,700 Euro ($75,831) http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/71252/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63 50,400 Euro ($61,943) http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/97080/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63 80,000 Euro ($98,322) http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/119460/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63
Good day, Interestingly these same cars have been for sale for at least 2+ years on the Anamera site... However, it is possible that they have been sold and the ad not removed just like lhe Canadian Ad. Cheers, Sam Image Unavailable, Please Login
When complete my bare metal nut and bolt restored 365 would not leave the homestead unless the offer was considerably north of 65K.
The question here is the same one I face in the Real Estate market on Maui. When someone starts stacking packs of $100 bills on your work table then and only then will the "Market Price" of this car be known. You would be surprised how many people who have told me they wouldn't take "a penny less" take Thousands less when the cash hits the table. Still it's a beautiful car and will no doubt be worth every penny you get for it!
Millions of houses is a bargaining bonanza 400s are bargains at the moment In any state but for info a 400 cannot be restored to original perfect rebuilt spec for less than 100 000 sterling or double that and more for Ferrari themselves doing the job Unbelievable? Buy one and book it in they will do. Regards Alastair
