375 MM Coupé 0402 AM ex-Rossellini SEIZED

Alberto,

Dave

 

Marcel you didn't understand the sense of what i wrote: of course the car had also an US plate and (i think) a French plate before the last and most probably also the French and the US circulation documents. Otherwise it could not circulate at all in those countries. But something is missing here: why the last owner need to re-register the car with the original italian plate when an Italian plate (even if it was a plastic reproduction) was still present on the car? You babysitted the car, so you can tell us if the Italian plate is original or a plastic reproduction.

 

To be clear, I am not a criminal, just improvisational, and I know I am 'deviating this thread'. Shame...The last sentence will redeem me, if I don't get black balled.

In El Salvador, a very 3rd world country, where most try to cheat and steal, I had an issue.
I bought a car that needed to be 1967 in order to bring it to the USA.

The local DMV fellow, when I asked him if he could do that, he said no problem! And said that everybody else wanted 'newer' years to make the cars younger,
'and that I must be stupid'. Bottom line, I still own a car that was born before it was even invented or designed.

On another car, I ran with EE plates, as it got off the boat, for a few years in California (with minimum liability coverage) and kept on 'renewing' the
Libretto di Circolazione with Letraset. An International D.L., and was all set to go. Got pulled over a few times and never an issue. Just one ticket.
Was there on a Tourist Visa. Without computers to hinder, and before the world became uglier.
The true definition of an Illegal Alien, self supported though, no handouts from the state, nor tents.

The car just would not pass, until way later the BAR, gave me an exception due to some very incredible gray areas,
(and, with a little help from my friends) it became regular.
Clearly, I did deprive the State of California for a few $. All, 90% legal.

I think documents will always trump (this word has possibly gone to a more selective use) authority, in some cases, and if VIP, no issues.
Depends where. Italy is a tough one. First they impound, and after, they ask for proof.

Best one for the end: Once, a looooong, long time ago, a 'certain Holy man' (yes, from that place) asked my father if the government of El Salvador
might be willing to 'gift 50 or so' passports (blank ones of course). My father, very politely said he had to consult,
and clearly the reply: "It was not possible", and out of his dominion.
In return, much much later, the Sacra Rota (marriage annulment bureau) denied my father a request for an annulment. Tit for Tat.

The Rossellini car, 'may' have had similar experiences. I mean, 50 years?

Regards, Alberto

 

And isn't that the 64,000 dollar question. Why would a car that was sold by a Swiss broker from the USA to a German owner who keeps it in Monaco need to pay Italian taxes on the transaction. Maybe the broker was in Italy but surely, unless the car was to be domiciled in Italy with an Italian owner, why would it be needing to be taxes paid in Italy?

 

as I see it the car should be registered again in italy and the original italian documents are missing? so when the car is not imported to italy within the europe union then it has to be paid tax and VAT in italy. but when the last car papers document a registration in any european country then there is no tax to be paid in italy

 

I remember this car having overheating problems during the Pebble Beach Tour on Thursday. I saw it pulled over near the Safeway with the hood up. I was on my trusty '48 Indian Chief (the only way to maneuver during Car Week) which had some tools onboard. I offered to help, but they declined; let cool off, and were on their way. That Sunday, it won Best of Show!

 

It is very simple, and put in simpler terms, this is the Italian system. Extremely complex under all points of view.
Any legal matters I try to pursue, it is a nightmare. Trust me, I know first hand with my mother's real estate in Italy.
It has been a struggle for the past 11 years, and it is a simple matter, no GdF involved, no cars, only real estate red tape.
Everything is 'Catch 22'. Due to her disorderly way of life, she owned a Nissan Micra, that had been 'radiated' from the system as it had a zillion in tickets, since her husband with dementia,
just drove the car and was ticketed all over. This where it gets funny, if she tried to junk the car, no one would take it, so I was stuck between a rock and hard place. Solution, I donated the car to an official at the Portuguese Embassy next door. Instantly resolved. No documents involved.
Diplomatic immunity.

The French invented bureaucracy, Italy perfected it. Ever ride a train in Italy, and do the change of track dance ? Go to the Post Office?
Rent a car, and try to call the agency for any reason? " Sorry, no one can answer as there are many flights landing at the moment".

I ended keeping the car I rented for an extra month, without talking to anyone. Think they cared? Nope.
Park on a metered space, that has no info. whatsoever on times and days? Just try your luck.

Ask any Italian, they hate the system, yet elected the people in charge, so learn, as they have from 1945 to now, after 69 governments.
Do the math, 1.1 x year.

One of the cars I mentioned in my previous post, EE plates, it took almost 3 months to take delivery in 1974.

All the Rossellini car wants is replacement Historical Plates. But, there are 'caveats'.

Regards, Alberto

PS. for those interested, here are the rules, and if you google a translation, it may not understand Italian 'legalese'. You might get the essence, though.

Non tutte le auto, le moto e i mezzi agricoli possono ottenere una targa storica. Il decreto prevede 3 fattispecie: i veicoli radiati dal Pra, i veicoli reimmatricolati nel corso della loro esistenza, i veicoli di origine sconosciuta, ossia privi di documenti di circolazione. Si nota, quindi, che si tratta comunque inderogabilmente di veicoli che all’origine erano iscritti al Pubblico Registro. Mancano, dunque, i veicoli che sono stati immatricolati per la prima volta in un Paese estero. Che attualmente possono essere nazionalizzati e targati con un contrassegno di identificazione del tipo ora in uso (le targhe attuali conformi alle normative europee).

 

I spent six months in Modena in 2006, indexing Adolfo Orsi's Maserati 1898-1984 factory photo archive, some fabulous experiences in Maserati, Ferrari etc Mecca...but the bureaucracy...no, my thoughts of settling there were quickly erased....despite Bianca's incredible eyes. One January evening I was a dinner guest in a Modena apartment owned -not rented- by Adolfo's business partner Raffaele Gazzi and at aperitivo time, around 8pm, the bell rang: it was a city employee demanding access to verify that the heating was not above the permitted temperature . Like Bolshevik Russia. Nope, not for me.

 

Marc, the heating is still controlled in that way. It goes on at a specific date, not if you are freezing
Every building, palazzo, or castle is monitored. If you die of hypothermia, tough luck.
The concierge goes to jail if he turns it on before. You, as an owner of an apartment, cannot.

 

So its likely to have Swiss taxes paid only (whatever they might be) and thus be like half the cars coming up for sale at Retromobile in a fortnight. It makes one wonder who Herr Berrgold retained to advise him on this. Any decent collection manager, broker, accountant, lawyer or whatever would have been able to answer this in an hour.............. Kidston should know everything about all the requirements for registration and taxes in all the main EU countries, surely.

 

Ahah that's why wealthy foreigners appear to visit Italy -as tourists or property owners- only in summer.

Marcel: I saw no Lupara (sawed off shotgun, had to look it up).

 

Lupara is considered uncouth and ordinary, as from the awful Southern part of Italy, and Sicily (not Italy) according to some Ticinesi.
Same goes for all Alps neighbouring regions, as they consider themselves unfortunate to have been born, South of the Alps, and quite
adroit at speaking Germanic languages. Southern Italy is a fantastic region, as many of you know. They do not.

Modena is the North. A Doppietta would be more appropriate, and elegant, handed over by a butler, as he would be serving the aperitivi.

Bigotry, is another deeply rooted facet of Italy, which does not help, as Northerners deeply dislike to have to bow down to Rome
for any Ministerial effort.
I was at the Milan train station, and there was a delay (never). An elegant gentleman approached me on the train when it arrived, and casually mentioned that
train delays were a quaint facet of the South. The gall! Pompous ass.
We chatted, and he asked me where my family was from: Vicenza. If he knew I was born in Rome, he would have stopped right then and there.
A Milanese, through and through.

The Ministry of Transport, that sets the rules for all things automotive, do not have much empathy for the North either.
So the Rossellini car may be out of luck for a costly while.
All roads lead to Rome

 

what please is "lupara" marcel?
oh, I have seen alberto already has written a little about this

but you can go directly from milano to roma or travel around the world from milano via switzerland, germany, france, US, japan, china north africe to roma

worldwide it is all getting more and more complicated - I ask why???

 

Romano, 'all roads lead to Rome' is a proverb that derives from medieval Latin.
Google it, quite a story attributed to someone famous in the 11th or so century.

Whereas 'all roads lead to Maranello' is a fictional proverb invented a few hours ago,
as before 1940 and Ferrari, nobody on earth knew of Maranello unless they stumbled on it,
or lived there.

Regards, Alberto

PS. a funny (not really) story about a Lupara...I was told the joke by my dad when I was 11 or so.

In Sicily a bandit gives his son a lupara for his 15th birthday.
Next day, the son comes beaming home with a watch and no lupara.
The father says, where is your lupara? the son replies that he traded it for the watch.
Great! says the dejected dad, and now when someone calls you a 'figlio di puttana' (SOB)
you will reply, it is 4:15 PM? .

The lupara is called so because it was at first used to kill wolves (Lupo = Lupara)
then, it became handy in banditry.

 

this we also have in germany: alle wege führen nach rom
but there are still roads not going directly

the joke is good

 

Learn a new one every day, thank you Romano, your name is kind of similar?
The proverb is almost in every language, so there is a very deep meaning to it, as during the Roman Empire, they all did lead to Rome.

Glad you enjoyed the silly joke

Back to the Rossellini car....or as the ones that really know,
375 MM Coupé 0402 AM
and those crazy Italians.