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375+ # 0384

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tongascrew, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921

    I call BS... there is NO excuse what so ever for misappropriating another's property... it's about personal property rights and what contracts may been created

    intellectually, I feel the pain of letting something with a provinance deteriorate into oblivian, but that is the sole domain of the owner, all others need to keep their nose out...
     
  2. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155


    The car does not have a point of view. To have a point of view, one must first be capable of thought and logic. The car is hunks of metal bolted and welded together. It is an inanimate object. It is nothing more than something to be owned and used a the owner desires in whatever way the owner wants.

    I find this sentimental and quasi-religious view that old cars are somehow living animate objects that have rights and should be considered the property of a collective to be very very strange.

    I am passionate about old cars and in particular their history. But the history that any old car has is only there because of the people who used the car. The car did nothing on its own. It was dreamed up by people, created by people, raced by people and subsequently used in various manners by people. Its entire history is the history of people and how they interacted with the car.



    Terry
     
  3. SEAN@TEAM AI

    SEAN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Sep 22, 2006
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    I really like metalfinders view.

     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ditto.

    What's not to like here? The rightfull owners heirs will likely get the car back and the thieves will lose all of the money they spent disguising and restoring this car.

    Works for me.

    The car will be auctioned off with the original parts and the next rightful owner can enjoy it as he wants.

    People who steal thing getting what they deserve thanks to Ocean Joe.
     
  5. MotorMouth

    MotorMouth Formula Junior
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    Jan 6, 2010
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    Columbia County NY
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    Dave
    what I dont get in all of this is, why did the guy collect and own all these amazing things just to destroy them? Did he not know what he was doing for the whole last 30 years of his life?

    I believe that the car was rightfully his and is still stolen and should be returned to his family but its a good thing it was stolen because it might not be around at all otherwise. The current keepers of the car who are going to have to give it back ought to just call it a favor to society. It was a positive result of theft.
     
  6. SEAN@TEAM AI

    SEAN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Sep 22, 2006
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    Sean Smith

    “Another person’s choice is nothing more than another alternative for you to consider.”

    Choice that's all. And it was his.
     
  7. karguy

    karguy Rookie

    Apr 18, 2012
    16
    #657 karguy, Jan 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
    There is no doubt in anyone's mind that this 375 is a very significant and historical vehicle. When you talk about the "sole domain of the owner, all others need to keep their noses out" there are examples in law for the "appropriation" of the property of others. Examples include the finding of treasure in England. No matter where it is found or whose property it is on it belongs to England. This is because England recognizes the historic significance and of these finds and the value to the citizens. These treasure finders are NOT allowed to melt these treasures into an ingot just because it is on their property. See details here Staffordshire Hoard | The largest hoard of Anglo-Saxon gold ever found

    Another example ones own children. Try not feeding them and see how long you get to keep your own kids. In Paris you are not allowed to do any harm to the facade of any buildings of a certain age even if you own it. The preservation happens here in the US too under certain "historic" preservation laws. Even protective covenants in numerous neighborhoods can take your home from you if you don't take care of it. The general idea is we all need to protect our history.

    I'm not saying that there are curently laws that protect historic cars. I am not saying that Ferraris are like children. (although some people treat them better than children! lol) All I was saying by my post above is that there is a large part of me that is GLAD the car was stolen and removed from Kelve's possession. I also don't consider Swalter a "thief" as he did not steal the car. Does that make the theft "legal", no. Does it make it the right thing to do? Perhaps not. But I still cheer the theft for the car's sake. I hate to think what it would have looked like if it sat in that mud from 1998 until his death. For all of the wonderful cars I have witnessed being slowly destroyed by people just like Kleve I cheer for the liberation of this car from car hell. And just like I said in my original post, a lot of people will not agree with my sentiments. But at least some do.
     
  8. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2003
    3,647
    ^ very dangerous thinking. Or do I need to go to reeducation camp? ;)
    Ed
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    You too can learn to Love Big Brother.
     
  10. SEAN@TEAM AI

    SEAN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Sep 22, 2006
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    #660 SEAN@TEAM AI, Jan 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
    WOW

    Fill in your profile. Maybe something in your control is being neglected.

    Just Sayin....
     
  11. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    good example of classical fascist thinking, something that most of the world is trying to forget
     
  12. karguy

    karguy Rookie

    Apr 18, 2012
    16
    WTH does hating to see a super cool and rare car rot into the ground have to do with politics. I don't think the thieves were working for any particular government, lol.
     
  13. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Project Master Owner

    May 10, 2006
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    Atlanta
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    It's man
    True words, but what a sad choice it was. There's a good chance the car simply would have rusted out beyond any kind of partially original or mostly original restoration and simply not exist had it not been for the thieves. A lesser and not really abusive situation was A Stradivarius violin was stolen in the 30s I believe, and the thief came clean only on his deathbed simply stating the location of the instrument and that the owner was not worthy and abused the priceless instrument. Many agreed with him but it still doesn't make it right, and it certainly wasn't a situation whereas the instrument would cease to exist under their ownership!
     
  14. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    This is not a correct story if referring to the Gibson Stradivarius, stolen from Bronislaw Huberman while playing at Carnegie Hall with his Guarnerius, having left his Stradivarius in his loge and found based on an indication of the thief 50 years later. Huberman was an extraordinary violonist and had many other qualities as well that he showed in the prewar and war times.
     
  15. MotorMouth

    MotorMouth Formula Junior
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    Jan 6, 2010
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    Columbia County NY
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    Dave


    Gee I guess I never looked at it that way. I guess I'll think twice next time before I move my priceless items in out of the snow... without the use of a bull dozer
     
  16. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    It's man
    Sorry, not to be off-topic. I heard from a professor at Julliard tell me that the thief had some sort of personal vendetta against Huberman. Could be heresy I suppose.
     
  17. Ferrari_nr1

    Ferrari_nr1 Karting

    Nov 16, 2003
    59
    Belgium
    #667 Ferrari_nr1, Jan 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. omd78

    omd78 F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2005
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    Martin
    Thanks for sharing.

    Gr. Martin
     
  19. SEAN@TEAM AI

    SEAN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Sep 22, 2006
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    Ocean Joe still going to trial on 2-14?

    Anything new you can report?
     
  20. MotorMouth

    MotorMouth Formula Junior
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    Jan 6, 2010
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    Dave
    I wonder if anything happened...
     
  21. SEAN@TEAM AI

    SEAN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Sep 22, 2006
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    From what I can see trail date has been rescheduled. Sometime in July.
     
  22. Ocean Joe

    Ocean Joe Formula Junior

    Mar 21, 2008
    444
    Boca Raton, Florida
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    Joseph Ford III
    #672 Ocean Joe, Feb 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You are correct about July. We are still in discovery with various motions pending. The Court ordered schedule is now:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. plasmaman

    plasmaman Rookie

    May 3, 2013
    3
    OJ
    I love this story I just found on this board.
    Can you post copies of all the 'settlement' agreements signed by the parties in this case?
    It would be good to see what the parties have agreed with each other over time.
    I believe there are several.
     
  24. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    If you have several hours, start this thread at the beginning. The reason this case has been going on so long is there have been no mutual agreements reached and may never be. tongascrew
     
  25. plasmaman

    plasmaman Rookie

    May 3, 2013
    3
    Thanks for that. However, you are mistaken.
    I have read all of the 34 pages from beginning to end, and that is why I asked the question. If you take the time to follow up the information that is in the public domain as I have, you will see that there are several settlement agreements that various parties have entered into at different times.
    The earliest referred to was made in September 1999, and the latest I seen referenced is April 2011. There are others along the way.

    It would be great if OJ (who obviously has access to all the filed documents) could share these agreements with the people who are following this story.
     

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