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365 BB Chassis 17553 Nut and Bolt Restoration

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by cnpapa24, May 11, 2019.

  1. ital351

    ital351 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2006
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    David
    Hi Guys,
    A few things occurred to me today... I notice that the rear deck has Louvers down the center. I was under the impression that the Louvers were added later as a solution to heat build up. Then I went back and looked at the magazine out takes in this post, and see that there are no louvers in that deck. The manual shows on TAV. 107 the louvers with notation "Applies from No. 248". I am guessing that is from SN 18248??? I have S/N 17929 it has the deck with no louvers except for the intakes. That might also account for the Lock Barrel on the filler door??? And possibly the cherished rear light covers!

    Also, Is the Heat Exchanger intended for Engine Oil or Gearbox oil? I see no Heat Exchanger anywhere under 17929. I also was not able to find it in the manual - which simply means - I was not able to find it in the manual. Since this is 17553, it might be worth checking to see that the Gearbox Oil Level Modification has been performed. The Mod. was standard after 17747. If it does have the Mod., perhaps the Heat Exchanger (if it is for the gearbox) was fitted too, along with the location change of the Water Reservoir. 17929 also has the water reservoir over the center of the engine.

    Now I always wondered when the Air Cleaner Tops went to Silver color instead of Black... maybe there are some - no, I'm sure there are posts I have not read!

    This is a really really nice car! - and appears to be a better than average condition and a perfect specimen for Pauls TLC! 17929 didn't have quite the charmed life, but I am slowly making it better.

    Cheers!
    Goggles,
     
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  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    This car had the rear clam replaced, my guess is it did a back flip and ended up behind the car on a spirited drive when I was still pedalling around on my big wheel. I noted that detail as well prior to inspecting the car. The opening will disappear.....

    My understanding is the cooler was on the first 30 or so cars but I haven't verified that number. Its for the engine oil. As for the box it has the upturned filler spout to add a litre and get the oil higher up on the carrier bearings.

    On this car the lids were black in the road and track article but are now silver. Its possible the original owner changed them to black but I have no way of knowing. The 512 had silver lids until 79 when they went from the fibreglass housings to the steel air cleaner housings. When the lids went black on the 512 they switched to steel lids from aluminum.
     
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  3. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Everything thats fresh yellow will become black. Under this yellow paint is a sealer and directly on the frame is an etch primer. This is why when the cars are new there's a lot of material on the chassis. Ferrari didn't get body colour on the chassis under the floor so its done a little better this way.

    The floor will go in soon and the heavy texture to follow.

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  4. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    this will be one for the ages!! good luck to cnpapa and my buddy paul.
     
  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  6. jjeffries

    jjeffries Karting

    Sep 4, 2012
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    Paul, for the frame elements still covered by the front bulkhead fiberglass, safe to assume that for blasting then painting you just do the best you can, and squirt as much paint down there as possible to reach the nooks and crannies? Thanks, John
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Yes but Ferrari painted those areas black prior to putting the fiberglass parts in. There was no reason to remove all of that up front just to get paint coverage again. The car is super clean.
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #110 Newman, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Ferrari makes cool engines but until the 90's they left a lot on the table and I can only speculate as to why. Bean counting being one and being conservative the other.

    Take this pretty cool engine for example and see where they fell down when it came to pistons. The compression height is .195" below the deck! My Panhead isn't even that bad. Its the same piston used in the 308 in every way except in the 308 its only .070" below the deck. The piston fit so they used it and turned a blind eye. Same bore and same stroke as a 308 but the decks are higher on the boxer block so the piston falls way short of reaching the top of the cylinder. Cost cutting? For sure. A dome is the worst piston design you can have and is needed to bring the compression ratio up as a compromise when the chamber is large. Testarossa went pent roof design on the combustion chambers and used a dished piston. Perfect! Im going to CC the chambers and cylinders like I do the other flat 12's and see what I come up with for a ratio. A flat top or dished piston is ideal on any engine and I would love to put a flat top in this engine with a solid 10:1 ratio running a zero deck. Problem is there's a fine line when you lower the wrist pin to raise the compression height and .195" is a mile when it comes to engine measurements. The piston gains weight and thats not a nice trade-off. Comes down to having to work within the confines of the engine design but if my hunch is right, this 8.8:1 engine is lower that what ferrari claims. Compression is torque, rpm is HP so we gotta up it. Ideally to run a dish or flat top it would need a longer stroke although a longer rod would would do it, increase piston dwell time and increase torque but it would also increase piston side loading, another bad tradeoff. Im rambling....

    So to make the 512 they bored it 1mm over and added 7mm of stroke which added 600cc's of displacement and closed the Grand Canyon compression height. So there was room to grow with the deck height they chose. Almost like they knew they were going to up the displacement. That or pure luck. Its like ferrari stuck to the numbering system though and it had to be 365 no matter what. They would have to call it a 412 if they went 5L and kept the traditional numbering system. 412GT4BB

    Put a 512M light weight crank in it, Ti rods, some interesting cams and hang on! Power would be up significantly.

    Water pump is leaking internally so the weep hole must be plugged.

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  10. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Wonderful to see this famous 365 thriving in your capable hands Paul! All the detailed pictures and explaining of the how and why are a real Boxer education.
    Hopefully you can create the look of those special original seats again. They are certainly one of the more interesting details for this particular 365.
    The different cloth seats pictured were in the 365 show car but they don't seem too durable...
    (Picture courtesy jm2 here)

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  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Thank you, its an exciting project and each one has been different so never a dull moment.

    In the middle of sorting that seat detail out right now in fact. I have to hear back from one supplier to see if the exact material can be made and not stick me with enough to cover all my furniture with it.

    You should come visit, I think I said that to you about 18 years ago.
     
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  12. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    Paul, aren't you going to do custom pistons anyway. A modern forged strutted piston saves weight plus you can use modern thin rings too. Take a look at:
    http://blog.wiseco.com/what-is-a-strutted-piston
    http://blog.wiseco.com/full-round-vs.-strutted-piston-forging-designs-and-skirt-styles-explained
    http://blog.wiseco.com/how-to-make-pistons-lighter
    I found these photos of a 365BB piston on ebay. All I can say is these OEM pistons are an archaic design. The full round skirt and 4 rings. This is the design you would fine on an old oil burning MG.
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  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    As ugly as the OEM pistons are they work and made a great production piston that fit multiple engines. I have a daytona piston here and its a 3 ring design but looks the same otherwise. I have lots of sample pistons on the shelf I can chose from to send out as a starting point to design new pistons.
     
  15. jjeffries

    jjeffries Karting

    Sep 4, 2012
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    Reading today's update, I just learned a few things. Thanks!
     
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  16. chriskindl

    chriskindl Rookie

    Apr 2, 2010
    31
    hello paul,

    as always: it is super following your reports.
    probably a misunderstanding, but a longer conrod reduces piston & cylinder side loads.

    best regards from berlin
    marek

     
  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    A longer rod increases piston speed which increases stress on the piston. Side loading would also increase with an increased speed. Im not changing rods so its not an issue.
     
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  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Did a compression ratio check today by measuring and cc'ing a cylinder and chamber etc etc, came up with a dome volume as well. There's something funky with the pistons because the low compression height doesn't sit right with me. All other engines measure roughly .070" below deck which isn't ideal and this one is just shy of .200" below which killed the already low factory spec of 8.8:1 bringing it down to 6.3:1. The 512 spec is 9.2:1 with a a .070" compression height but measures out at 8.75:1 - lower than Ferrari claims. The 8.8:1 308 measures out to between 8 and 8.5:1 - again, lower than ferrari claims. This engine has been apart before so i'm giving ferrari the benefit of the doubt that someone during the rebuild put the wrong pistons in it. The number stamped on the piston doesn't jive in the parts book either so no help there.

    Going to 10:1 will be a nice upgrade and work well with the factory cams.

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  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    A cooling system revision to the 512 block where they added some room around the liners for coolant flow. I dont think its so much to increase coolant capacity as it is to improve circulation.

    On the injected engines they made a further revision to the number 6 cylinder where they added 4 small bleed holes around the liner which happens to be the furthest cylinder from the water pump. I didn't attach pics of that detail.


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  20. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    Aug 4, 2004
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    Paul......are you saying that Ferrari "fibs" when it documents the specs of an engine? :eek: OMG! May the Lord have mercy on your soul for such blasphemy. I swear my 330 GTC type 209 has the factory claimed 300 hp. Okay......maybe downhill on a mountain being towed by a Raptor.....lol.

    I know nothing about the 365 BB engine except what I have read by owners as being a hotter engine with a tighter torque range than the 512. My old man had an 83 BBi bought new from Algar at the same time I bought a well-used 76 BB in Italy. While my dad's BBi didn't fill the garage on start w/ unburnt fuel like my BB in my useless opinion the BB was much more visceral and a brute in comparison to the BBi.

    Not sure if you remember me but after owning a "regular" BB for 15 years and having no intention of buying another along comes the Carobu Engineering BB that I bought. It was a car I wasn't looking for. Dyno'd with 468 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque and lowered it really is a beast. Carobu said the exhaust breathing was fine. Tate Casey and his partner determined that the car had more upside on the intake. So they changed to hotter cams and ported the intakes resulting in a 100 hp increase. You can't see anything different than the bigger radiator needed to handle the increase power. These are true and huge jumps in power.

    My question.........is the Carobu route something that could be done with the 365 BB? Take the best engine of all the BBs and make it better.
     
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  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Yes of course I remember you and that car, you were debating sending it to me a number of years ago.

    Okay on the subject of engines in general lets take the honda S2000 for example. A small high revving engine that makes 240HP - sounds impressive for an inline 4 naturally aspirated engine and it is actually. But it lacks torque and requires high rpm to put those numbers down, but HP isn't what moves you, torque does. The only way to increase torque is through displacement, compression ratio or forced induction. There are other tricks like variable cam timing, variable intake runner length and variable exhaust back pressure which all effects cylinder filling but they don't make a small engine act like a big one.

    Now if you take a two identical engines, all things being equal and then reduce the displacement on one of them what result would you expect with that smaller engine? I wouldn't expect and increase in output personally. It would produce less torque and less HP. So now add a cam to that smaller engine thats too large for the displacement and compression ratio, now what happens? HP goes up and torque curve shifts up to a higher RPM and takes a hit down low. The engine will rev freely and have a narrow power band up high, peaky if you will (but so would a larger engine with an inappropriate cam). How do you make up for a high RPM peaky engine thats over-cammed? Change the rear axle ratio to get it into its operating range sooner and increase torque multiplication. This stuff is hotrod 101 and what I grew up on. My 440 sixpack challenger stroked to 500CID with a 4.10 dana had lots of get up and go ;) and this Ferrari stuff is no different. Its a car with an engine.

    This is my take. Old man Enzo probably didn't even have to make the command, it was understood the 365cc per cylinder arrangement would continue on into the new flat 12 car aimed at Lamborghini. So Belli had the task of making it work. Dyno numbers were 380HP according to them but that would be with dyno headers not taking two axle shafts into consideration, two things that bugger up the exhaust path on number 6 and 7 cylinders. In other words those two cylinders dont produce the same output as the other 10 on a street version. The BBLM exhaust manifolds addressed that. I don't look at the 365 engine as "the best" of the 3 versions. I see it as the first version that was constrained by Enzo's slow moving progress like keeping the engine up front until he was handed his butt on the track, same with drum brakes. Dont get me wrong, I love flat 12's the most, head over heels actually. Im also a realist and I think that's important because it keeps your approach straight-forward and logical not relying on any magic or folklore to make it perform or think it performs better than it actually does. Take the name Ferrari out of the equation and look at it as a 1 cylinder engine because the other 11 are the same. Optimize or improve that one cylinder and repeat it 11 times. There are things that apply to all engines and thats the combination of parts to achieve your goal, they all respond the same way. The combination of compression, cams and how much air can you get in and out of it determines its personality. Get it right and that engine will be the best that that specific engine can be and we can ignore the other engines that are larger or smaller because they're irrelevant.

    One more point on "the best" comment. Each version is different and wonderful and caters to a different buyer. Best isn't the right term. Knowing these cars intimately I can say that the running changes they made to the flat 12 were done because of lessons learned and they were making improvements. Its not like the engine and car went downhill over time. The 365 provides a specific experience that appeals to some and not others. To me because im a hot-rodder I prefer my carb'd 512 because I can modify the engine extensively, the gearbox is stronger, the cooling system is better and the engine makes great torque. I love that and the koenig scoops over the roof along with cracked lacquer paint and battlescars! That's not a put-down to either of the other two models, its just a fact you can see by looking and understanding the differences and thats what puts the smile on MY face.
     
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  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    also on my face :)
     
  23. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I bought an OEM 365 piston and here's what I found. In a nutshell it had 308 pistons in it from a previous rebuild.

    The compression height of the 365 piston (distance the perimeter of the piston is from the top of the deck) is higher which will raise the compression ratio. The 365 dome volume I measured is 1 cc more which also raises compression ratio. You can see the diameter of the dome on the 365 is 2mm larger in diameter vs the 308 dome and the intake valve relief is also off to one side on the boxer piston. The 308 piston fit and didn't crash into anything only because the diameter is the same and the compression height is .130"+ lower than it should be giving it a margin of safety. So the 308 piston put the compression height at .186" and the 365 piston moves it up to .052" - huge difference. So I checked the dome volume and recalculated the actual compression ratio with the 81mm bore and came out to 9.39:1 vs the 6.3:1 ratio it was running with the 308 pistons.

    Pics to show differences of a variety of Ferrari pistons.

    First pic is the new 365 piston.

    The pic of the 2 pistons in the bores are 365 left and 308 right.


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  24. CarbBoxer

    CarbBoxer Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2008
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    well- that will certainly round up some missing ponies
     

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