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365 BB Chassis 17553 Nut and Bolt Restoration

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by cnpapa24, May 11, 2019.

  1. vfinaldi

    vfinaldi Karting

    Aug 28, 2015
    145
    So. Cal.
    Check Veloce Publishing...
     
  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    They are the ones that didn't like it, they referred to the idea as a hybrid. They like mostly pictures or all text but didn't like a combo of both.
     
  3. TerryG!

    TerryG! Karting

    Feb 12, 2017
    82
    Central UK
    A surprising response from Veloce, especially given what McClure wrote in the Forward to the reprint of Jim Riff’s collection of early V12 information.
     
  4. vfinaldi

    vfinaldi Karting

    Aug 28, 2015
    145
    So. Cal.
    That sucks. It's really unfortunate that print is a dying industry. I love car books, and use them often. Some are so useful... The BB is definitely in need of such a tome.
     
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    in germany we have meanwhile online publisher for little money but for each sold book they get then a lot
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Ready for sealand on the block halves.

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    Bearing shells on the left are the center mains. On the right are the other mains for the left half engine case but not the end mains.
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    Ferrari blocks the right block half oil supply from directly oiling the crank with solid bearing shells. This forces the oil around to the left half through a groove behind the bearings where it can lube the crank through the grooved bearing shells with holes you see below. This approach helps keep oil pressure up and keeps it moving along down the main galley on the right block half instead of dumping the bulk of the supply right at the crank and back to the sump which helps feed the heads from the passages at the rear of the engine.
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    And below is the left half when I took it apart. Solid bearing shells where it should have grooved shells, the previous engine builder got the bearings mixed up bank to bank. The oil pump would need to be dialed up to compensate for the over-oiling and pressure drop.
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  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    All 12 pistons in. Ring gaps set, rods torqued.

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    People have asked in the past about the cover plates on the top of the flat 12's. Here you can see the upper rod bolt inside that access hole. Makes it a pain to torque rod bolts especially in 3 steps having to spin the crank back and forth as each rod bolt is done up gradually.

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    Cam belt drive gear marked R had a loose ring nut which elongated the woodruff key slot so the darker gear on the right is a new old stock part.

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    Note key slot difference

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  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    This is why I keep notes on fasteners. If you just measured the overall length of a stud thinking you're good you would soon discover the error of your ways. I don't typically show my notes but figured it can't hurt. I note the length of thread in and out of the casting so things go together smoothly. I keep the records for all the cars I restore which comes in handy if a basket case comes in.

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  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    This is a 365 pinion gear, it has 12 pinion teeth.

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    Ferrari continued to lower the ratio throughout the 365 model range because they had to. They did it in very small steps which to me means they were trying to get away with a ratio that wouldn't neuter the car's performance but still provide some reliability. They also made numerous changes to the gearbox castings, syncros, shift rods, carrier supports and oil filter adapters within the 3 model years the car was in production. The final version of a 365 box looks like a dry sump 512 box but it has a dipstick hole - externally that's it. Internally its machined differently for oiling. They made one more ratio drop when the larger displacement 512 engine came out and it seemed to work for the most part.

    The reason for the ratio change is because the rule of thumb for a pinion gear is no less than 13 teeth. Because of the gear tooth design you have more than one tooth in constant contact with 13 or more teeth, this spreads the load. Too few teeth puts too much load on a single tooth and they snap off. Unfortunately this minimum tooth count limits ratio options because of space limitations inside the gearbox. The highest safe numerical ratio I can offer is 3.70:1 in a 512 box. 365 Im unsure because the crown gear has to fit through the side opening not the rear like a 512. I can just imagine making a gear that's a 1/4 of an inch too big to fit the opening....


    This is a 512 pinion gear I had made for another application, it has 14 pinion teeth.
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    My billet differential will be going in shortly.
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  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Swapping the diff for my billet unit.

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    I kept this diff as a great example of what can happen and its a timebomb at this point. Ive replaced a few just like it that hadn't done any damage yet. I was even doing dyno pulls on the car this diff came from prior to pulling the engine (A testarossa I put a 512M engine in) and to do a preventative diff swap only to find it was already cracked. Inspecting it any way other than removing the left gear box support is futile.
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Differential and supports in for the first time. The supports go in at least 3 times if no adjustments are needed. In this case 4 at least.

    First time to check preload - no support o-rings or seals
    Second time is with the crown gear to check backlash and pattern - no support o-rings or seals
    Third time would be if backlash and pattern checked out in the previous step but this time with o-rings on the supports
    In this case backlash is .002" so Monday Ill pull the supports, remove one bearing shell in the left support to increase shim thickness and add a thicker shim under the right support of equal thickness so preload doesn't but backlash does.
    If it passes this time then the supports come out again to get the o-rings then back together it goes for the final time.
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  17. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The diff is NOT easy to fit in the opening, it has to go through on an angle then around the pinion gear, main shaft and two saddle supports. Its best done with the box on its side. If the crown gear was any bigger and it wouldn't fit no matter how you held your tongue. Wish I was there when they were doing the R&D on this box seeing what hurdles they dealt with having to go back to the drawing board.

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  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Years ago I saw this factory tool on ebay for $26 - what a score. Works on the 308 main shaft ring nut but works on a boxer, just longer than need be.

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  19. wlanast

    wlanast Formula 3
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    Who made the diff carrier, was it ZF?

     
  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    why only on monday? what about saturday or sunday? ;)
     
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  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Yep ZF made the welded ones
     
  22. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Good day Paul,

    You did not mention it... I would suggest you also scan your notes if you currently do not. Notes can get lost, damaged, misplaced, and so having digital copies will pay dividends + are very easy to archive (DVD or something like that). Although DVD/CD are older tech they have a much longer storage life than USB Sticks that people like to use. Most do not realize that the data life on a USB stick is at best 10 years, but internal data corruption can occur often and easily way before that. One of my customers were archiving to USB sticks and was shocked that their archives were knackered after 3 years. This was only discovered when they needed the archive. DVD/CD's are really robust and most have lifespans exceeding 20+ years assuming no physical damage to them.

    If you do not have access to a scanner, then take some high res pics of the pages and archive.

    I now digitally scan all of my handwritten notes and it is awesome. I then place my physical notes, diagrams, etc in banker boxes for safe keeping. When I need to refer to my notes I simply bring up my digital copy which is much faster than having to spend time searching my physical library. If one was even more of a keener, you could also attach searchable "message tags" to your digital note pages for easier searching.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  23. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    I remember doing it and it was a bit of a puzzle, only one way to get it in and out and there was a point where it looked like it would not. Once you kind of found that sweet spot it came out and went in pretty quick.

    As always, the engine, trans look like new. Would have been ugly if the diff had snapped during the test runs.
     
  24. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    365 is completely different. The carrier goes through the left side not the rear like a 512.
     
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  25. jjeffries

    jjeffries Karting

    Sep 4, 2012
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    Paul, how many of your diff carriers are now installed in Boxers and TR-family cars around the world?
    Best, John
     

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