360CS Roll Cage - get a CH or custom? | FerrariChat

360CS Roll Cage - get a CH or custom?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by dan360, Dec 14, 2006.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    I'm interested if anyone has thoughts on putting a roll cage in a CS. Having missed the last targa newfoundland due to a knee injury I'm doing it this year instead. I'm seriously considering using my CS, since if I'm going to keep it I don't need to worry about doing silly stuff like putting a roll cage to it.

    I reckon fit a roll cage, plus seats, raise the rid height, play with the springs and voila I can run the targa and be hopelessly uncompetitive vs a 996TT. However I'll be the dude in the Ferrari :)

    I've done a bit of internet searching but not found a price for the CH cage. I'm guessing that its some stupid price like 10K and I'd be better off just having a race shop fabricate something for me.

    I'd also add true race seats 5 (or 6?) point harnesses and a fire suppression system.

    Is a roll cage totally illegal from a road use perspective or would I be able to continue to use the car on the road? I know people manage to register 355CH with roll cages, so I presume this is work-roundable.
     
  2. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2003
    1,961
    Brooklandville, MD
    Full Name:
    Ira Schwartz
    I can't speak to the legality of running a car with a cage on the street, as it varies from State to State, but if you do it be sure to mitigate the inherent danger by padding the hell out of the cage and using harnesses to keep you from making contact with it, since whacking your head on the cage when you're driving without a helmet could be problem.
     
  3. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    You will be surprised at the high price low quality of an OEM Ferrari cage. If I were you I would seek out http://www.redlinerennsport.com/ John knows how to build a safe cage. There is alot to it and few pros who do it right. Somewhere I posted about 360 cage feet and how the cage is connected to an aluminium tub. That is just one issue with a cage in a 360.
     
  4. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Well... I'm not really ever surprised by the price of anything with the yellow box...

    Thanks for the connection - it looks from the website like he's in upstate NY which isn't too bad for me since I'm in MA.

    I've also been researching seats, any thoughts on racetech? The 9109 and 4009 seats look like good options.
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    #5 fatbillybob, Dec 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Redlineman is worth the drive. We have had many rollcage and race safety discussions including harnesses and seats. He knows his stuff. I'm on the left coast and there is no one else who's opinion I trust as much as his. Racetech makes good strong seats. I am partial to well supported metal seats connected to the rollcage. The 360 is a fast car meaning you can have a big crash. Especially sice the connection of steel cage to aluminum tub is suspect IMO I would strongly consider a full cage with perhaps a less cool looking Custom Ultrashield or Butler built NASCAR style aluminum seat connected to the cage. The reason for this is that if the car collapses around you then you are contained in the safety cell of the rollage and your seat is inside that and firmly connected. If your seat is on the OEM floor and the car collapses the cage can move and even hit you. This is moreso in an aluminum tub because you can't weld in the rollcage to the frame you can only bolt aluminum to steel. I am very partial to "full containment" seats and they make any head and neck restraint you use work better too. And yes I am paranoid...This is the inside of my 348 w/ Custom Ultrashield full containment seat back braced and connected to the cage.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Fab - thanks for the tips on the seats (www.butlerbuilt.net, and www.ultrashieldrace.com for anyone else interested in this topic).

    I'm interested how you've braced the seat against the cage, it looks from the picture like some sort of tie? Is the seat in this application no longer adjustable?

    Thanks for the detailed advice, very helpful.
     
  7. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
  8. Harmonyautosport

    Harmonyautosport Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2006
    683
    New York
    I think those seats will be brutal to drive in, I would look at a Sparco or Recaro carbon race seat.
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal

    Yes...I my case I am the only driver so my seat is not adjustable. It is bolted to the cage in 8 places (2 at shoulders, 2 about hips, 4 on the floor of the cage and nothing on the car sheet metal). I am not sure how you would make an adjustable seat that would have as rigid a connection as a fixed seat. If you run enduros with other drivers then you must compromise but also add in a sliding adjustable back brace. You can get such a brace from I/O port racing. The current dogma is that you are safest with a non-yielding seat because it prevents whip and build-up of kinetic energy. FIA legal plastic seats CF and Fiberglass are tested to like 20g's and yield by design and have a shelf life because plastic degrades. This yield by design also includes the ability to spill you out of a seat in lateral impacts and also makes it harder for head and neck restraints like HANS to do their job. So ultimately you will have to replace the seat often or use a brack brace with a plastic seat negating its design. So I say go with a metal seat which is designed to be attached to cages. Some racetechs like the viper seat which is like the 4009 or 9009 I forget is rated to 40g's! Of the plastic seats I like full containment racetech and recaro spg pro HANS the best. Properly supported metal seats will take the full load without failure which has been shown to be in the 100g range in severe impacts with driver surviability. That's another reason I like full containment seats they are just built more stout. My old carbon FIA OMP seat was 8lbs! My Ultrashield custom aluminum seat was $1200 bucks and weighs almost 30lbs! It is a pig and you don't need the weight but I like the potetial safety because I am a chicken. Ultrashield and Butler are ment for NASCARish use and design for those guys hitting cement walls.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    Yes and No... full containment obstructs your vision and on occasion I am slower because I can't see if I can dive into a line. However, they also make me faster because they support so well that I can fully relax and feel the car and my hands can be light on the steering wheel. I have no tendency to pucker the butt cheeks trying to not slide in a seat. With a rigid connection to the car the butt feels everything the car does and I make better corretions. So it is a trade-off. Driving comfort is not an issue but vision is so I use a giant parabolic rearview mirror (Allview @ I/O port racing for example). These mirrors work so well I deleted my 348 giant side mirrors for weight and wind drag if that helps any I don't know. I think it is a trade off. Car egress is a big issue and some cars are too small inside to accomodate them. But remember what you can get in and out of easy will also not contain you as well. Harness belt stretch in an impact is around 12" with a good hit and the best poly belts. So lossen your belts 12" and see what your head can hit in your car and you will be surprised. Combine that with a car collapsing in on you and it is worse. Full containment is exactly that "full containment" and it helps you much more in lateral impacts especially if you are using a HANS which has only fair lateral impact protection. The plastic full containment seats are smaller (usually smaller head halo, lower lateral supports, smaller rib/shoulder support) than the US or Butler so may fit in tight compartments. Taking interior out and building the cage up to the interior metal helps increase interior room but some owners or rules prevent you from doing that. So Dan...do a little research...if you keep on this track your next controversy will be X-bars or NASCAR bars in your race car and of course by big mouth has opinions on that too.
     
  11. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Thanks - I'll do more research. Looks like the racetech might not be a bad option if I want to retain the ability to have some seat movement.
     
  12. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    12,355
    Full Name:
    Juan
    That's one hell of a set up for a fat man. How light is your car? I'm trying to drive up support for a Challenge car reunion at Watkins Glen, the 07 National FCA meet. I hope you can attend.
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    Well, I'm 2685 dry with more weight to remove. I would love to drive WGI keep me posted. What month is it? I had mixed feelings with FCA westcoast chapter. I tried to do the track event at Laguna Seca combo with Monterey historics (FCA national meet 2004?) and it was very disorganized as to how the track event was to run. I had some issues with them and gave up and did not go. It has been too long and I can't remember why FCA was lame out here but that was just my own experience. Others thought they were great. WGI is a long trailer ride. If a group of California guys were going out I would be willing to have my car transported.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    Too bad more people have not posted to this thread. I am particularly interested in what solutions people have come up with bolting steel cages to the 360 aluminum tub. It seems to paranoid me that bolting to aluminum is weak. I think Harmony or MVP did post on this issue as to how challenge cages are attached. Seeing what others have done is always interesting. I think C6 Z06 vettes are aluminum and C6 regualr vettes are steel. Real racers I think are starting with a regular C6 platform so they can weld to the vette frame and doing semi-tube frames and than adding in all the aero body kits and Z06 engine.
     
  15. riverflyer

    riverflyer F1 Rookie

    Nov 26, 2003
    3,583
    Mendocino, Ca
    Full Name:
    John
    #15 riverflyer, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    fbb, not exactly on topic but might be helpful. Here is a pic of the factory roll bar base attachment in the 360. The midpoint brace attaches again through the firewall.
    Might not be helpful in a nascar type hit at 200 into a wall but would certainly help in most roll over situration on the road at more normal speeds.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal

    Yes Riverflyer I have seen this as typical 360C. Thanks for the pics. I guess Ferrari tested it. It just looks weak to me. I think that little metal box of sheet aluminum or even if steel you just crush under the load. I bet I could put a 2000lb capacity come-a-long between the bases of the cage B-pillers and by hand rip the cage feet right out of the floor. But I could be wrong. If I am right then the cage will not even take 1 g which is the weight of the car. I just don't know. It passes the letter of to challenge rules and I guess NASA and SCCA. I think SCCA has a variance for bolted in cages on aluminum tubs. Otherwise it is weld in only or you don't pass tech.. Martin is a racy guy on this board maybe he knows or has fortified his cage?
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    #17 fatbillybob, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You see when you attach rollcages to the car you should try to attach to the frame in multiple directions because the feet need to take hits from all directions. Incorporating a vertical surface with a hortizontal surface helps it take more load. Bolting or welding to the floor even with larger backing plates still allow the cage feet to punch through the floor's thin sheet metal. Adding additional surfaces is absolutely critical with unibody frames like the 348/355 vs. a C5/6 vette which has these huge hydroformed frame rails of thick 3/16" steel running the length of the car. Even with Vettes we add additional surfaces. Here is an example of my A-piller cage foot while still under construction. You can see that this is a very solid footing welded and with multi-surface tie -in using 3/16" plate. A hit needs to be pretty big to cave this in. Now compare mine to the 360C thin sheet.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. Davesvt2000

    Davesvt2000 Formula 3

    May 3, 2005
    1,128
    Central Mass.
    Full Name:
    Dave G.
    DAN360, I would give a call to www.tubechassisdesignz.com in Hanson, Mass and ask for the owner Jon. The guy is a true artist with a welder, and is very well known in the New england area for his roll cages/roll bars.

    He installed a 6 point roll bar in my Mustang for $700 last year. This price though had me stripping out the interior and seats, to save him some time, and me reinstalling everything...
     
  19. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Thanks Dave - another tip to follow up.
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
     
  21. Davesvt2000

    Davesvt2000 Formula 3

    May 3, 2005
    1,128
    Central Mass.
    Full Name:
    Dave G.
     
  22. FormulaRacer

    FormulaRacer Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2003
    261
    Any reason you chose 1.75x.084? That does not fit into basically any race series. Odd size...you sure it was not 095?

    Here are pictures of a cage we designed last year for a BMW E36 M3. Its a bit beyond the normal cage, but we were an engineering company that primarily designed suspension, and now they branched out into a lot more standard service and race preparation, with a lot more full ground up racecar builds coming for 07. We did a couple WCT and GAC projects, but msotly experimented in BMWCCA b/c its a cheap place to test. This particular car is still winning national races very often. Usually turns the fastest laps of the weekend if they dont have engine issues, its a very basic euro 3.2. But this is what a cage should look like for the most part. You want every tube to terminate at a node that has load paths all coming into the same point. And of course you want triangles everywhere. This is close to semi-tube frame, however its still mostly unibody based with subframes. (no longer engineering for them though)

    The project I am now doing (personal "toy" to race in 07/08 hopefully) is a partial tube frame E46 2dr M3 chassis, but i'm using a 2.8L turbo motor. Its an engineering project for me to pretty much have fun, its an all out unlimited class BMWCCA "supermod" car, essentially, no holds bar. I've designed an extensive aerodynamic package, custom ohlins, tube frame rear suspension, cockpit ajd swaybars, etc. You can follow its progress at WWW.JAFFSTER.COM

    Pics of E36 cage mentioned above:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    I ain't no expert but that cage looks all wrong to me. Experimental yes. Before you do the E46 cage I'd do things a bit different.
     
  24. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 23, 2002
    14,372
    S W London
    Full Name:
    Tony H
    #24 tonyh, Dec 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    CS roll bar is better than noting, but not much better. For racing, a 360 Challenge roll cage is the bare minimum IMHO. Only problem is that it will require modification to the lower dash and interior trims. The cage itself is about $3000, but the 4 aluminum mounting brackets costs double that from Ferrari.

    Custom job from a qualified shop appears to be the cheaper and better solution.
     

Share This Page