360 performance upgrade

Great question b/c I have exactly that setup. Would be interesting if someone has dyno'd it before (stock) and after this setup. I'd guesstimate 15-20bhp increase, and the weight savings is probably a good 50lbs., but I don't think a 360 with this setup is near the performance level of a CS. For one thing, the F1 control system and shift times are greatly improved in the CS.

 

Check out this video of 360 with bolt ons vs several CS, the 360 pulled on all of them:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ferrari360modenagtr#p/f/12/OIr-naAqjVs

I think you will definitely be close to CS if not faster with your mods.

I too wonder the same. My 360 weight nearly the same as a fully optioned USspec Challenge Stradale. I also have Timate Titanium exhaust and K&N filter. The car felt so much better after I disabled the exhaust valves. The car is definitely quite a bit quicker than when it was stock. I should have hi flow cats installed by end of this week.

 

I can't believe that with just exhaust and cai mods, a standard 360 will be faster than a CS considering it weighs about 400lbs more. Granted my weight figure is derived from Wikipedia.

 

Its an interesting discussion this.

As with all simplistic assertions we have to be 'very' careful about what we are actually describing when we simply say a lightly modded 360 Modena will be 'faster' than a CS. Maybe in a straight line this could be perhaps true in some 'real world' situations with a lot of different variables at play but its give and take with all things like this.

Where Ferrari really concentrated on with the CS was the handling, its vastly improved, cornering and handling really do set them apart. Think of a CS as the HGTC upgrade and then some. Lets look at this for a moment;

1. CS Suspension Setup
- Vastly improved suspension setup in all areas, everything from geometery, tires, unsprung weight savings, uprated titanium springs, rollbars, suspension computer software, lowering, bushes, ti bolts, the lot). They basically threw their entire knowledge of doing HGTC upgrades at the CS and this is really the biggest improvement IMHO.

2. CS Braking Setup
- Vastly improved braking in combination with stiffer suspension, lower weight, better controlled body roll and improved geometery not to mention the carbon ceramic brakes saving 15kg's of unsprung weight too and improved stopping distances over the stock 360 brakes. Again another of the recent HGTC upgrades.

3. CS Aero Setup
- Improved front end downforce helps grip and the side skirts plus lowering also help too, not to mention the rear nulder (like having a rear wing on the back) and rear diffusers.

Forget just about the straight line performance for a moment, all the above refinements make for a car that absolutely murders a stock 360 Modena in the twisties. It really is a different car feel. Thats not to say you cannot better this. Fit Moton fully adjustible race shocks as used on some 430 GT racing cars (ligher than factory shocks and ti springs), improved tires such as Pilot Cups or the like and uprate the suspension bushes to Delron (430 Challenge car material) and your already starting to get there. Fit of the top of the line ultralight monster steel brake upgrade kits (again race car stuff) and you'll improve braking further too and be lighter. Ofcourse all this stuff costs big $$$ and takes a lot of time to get perfected.

On the power hike stuff, really the improvements where not earth shattering in power but they did liberate quite a bit more responsiveness in the throttle maps, especially compared to stock Modena's. Yes you can tune more straight line performance.

Back to real world stuff again, lets discuss weight. If the CS has a full tank of fuel and a heavy driver vs a Modena with a near empty tank, carbon seats and a lightweight sports exhaust (like a timate), there is very little in it from a weight perspective.

Basically the CS will still outhandle the Modena but you need a pretty confident driver at the helm and to really extract all the power from the CS you need to get into the higher revs, 8500 redline area, reason being is the power is shifted slightly up the rev range compared to Modena (the exhaust valve timing has overlap).

Overall unless your pretty hardcore (in which case you may just as well consider a Challenge car?) then the CS steers the perfect balance between Challenge car for the road and road car.

How many people really do it all right too? For most its far easier (and they'll retain their residual values better to) to consider a CS in the first place. Not trying to disuade people but be under no illusion heavy mods do devalue Ferrari's to all but the most hardcore enthusiasts.

 

As always 360Trev, quality reply. I'm going to be in the market for a CS around the end of this year. I've acutally searched your thread history and learned so much. I gotta believe that a CS owner who upgrades to BMC filter, Tubi headers and test pipes, and a Capristo exhaust would greatly improve straight line speed as well. no?

 

Not sure about 'greatly' but there are ofcourse areas a CS owner can look at to improve things more. There are laws of diminishing returns coming into play though... Where do you stop???

Maintenance
Handling
1. Full geometery alignment should be done at least once a year or if you change any suspension parts or tires. Even better go to your local race specialist and get them to corner weight your vehicle with you in it (!) so its perfectly setup with even sweeter handling. Also check the ride heights match spec, especially important on the CS which has lower front setup and higher at rear for aerodynamic gains.

2. Recommend replacing the suspension bushes on the upper and lower arms (all 16 of them!) every 4 years on the road cars and anti-roll bar bushes (they are changed at least once every season on the challenge cars!). The road cars have rubber bushes which deteriorate over time and lead to mushy inconsistent feeling which isn't as sharp when they degrade.

Upgrade
1. If you want to improve handling you can switch out the rubber bushes for Delrin bushes from the 430 Challenge cars. This makes the ride quality less smooth but sharpens up the handling no end. Really great improvements if you reguarly track the car. Alternatives are polyeurathane bushes.

2. Consider lighter more motorsport oriented shocks such as Moton fully adjustibles. They have a seperate res. and can be tuned to your driving style and track. Also look into different spring rates.

3. Consider more track inspired rubber, tyres like Toyo R888's or Michelin pilot cup tyres which are more like road legal slicks in the dry. Providing improved mechanical grip.

4. Replace caliper bolts with titanium ones (as well as wheel bolts if you dont have a cs). This is all unsprung weight so improves handling more than you'd imagine.

5. Replace flywheel with lighter one for improved rev response.

6. Replace stock cats, headers and air filters for lighter more free flowing units (upto 30hp is claimed on the cs with dyno's). The cats alone can save as much as 9kg's [19 lbs].

7. Replace exhaust with an ultra light 8kgs titanium system saving as much as 16kg's over stock CS system and 23kgs [51 lbs!] on a Modena! This is directly off the back of the car too so removes the heavy 'boat anchor' factory system.

8. Fit a switch and rewire the suspension ecu to be switchable for soft/hard while still in race/sports mode (as per Scuderia).

9. Fit a ultra lightweight battery. The latest lightweight batteries even outweight the PC925 by using laptop battery technology, the weight a miniscule 4.5kg's [10 lbs] but are expensive (around $1000 usd). This can save another 16kgs [ 35lbs ] over stock.

10. Replace factory carbon adjustible seats with racing fixed bucket carbons for another 15kg's over stock.

11. Consider fitting a quick ratio 360 Challenge Steering rack (Improves feel) and has less turns lock to lock which makes the car feel hyper responsive. Just an amazing difference (!) which you wouldn't believe was possible. Cannot understand why they didn't do this on the CS!

12. Consider using more 430 challenge parts such as featherweight 'plastic bag' water tank for washer jets. Simple cheap upgrade, saves some weight, straight swap over.

13. Remove aircon. You need to be really hardcore to consider this though !

14. Consider ultra lightweight racing wheels. If you want to stick to factory parts you can still go much lighter, junk the CS wheels and fit 430 Challenge wheels with gorgeous center lock nuts, very expensive since you need to change hubs and stuff but my god they are super cool.

15. Junk all the trunk compartment trim, toolkit, etc (you don't need it) and can save around 6kg's. Just put it in your garage for safe keeping..

A well setup CS with choice upgrades can save 400lbs (~180kg's) which makes for a startling difference again. A sort of CS2. Thats a car with 1100kg's dry weight, 1200kg's kerb.

-T

 

Ofcourse you don't need to do any of the above stuff to enjoy a CS. Its brilliant from factory....

 

Did you watch the video above? It should already contain answers you are looking for.

Best motoring also did a back to back comparison between CS and 360. In terms of straight line, numbers don't lie. IMO the difference is close enough that 360 with bolt ons should be slightly quicker than "stock" CS.
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These cars are not about drag racing. They shine on race tracks and mountain roads. Roads that test your skills and the cars capabilities.

 

wow never realised there was so much potential still to improve on a cs. where wld one go to get the 360 challenge rack. my car is a rhd tho .are they available for rhd?

 

[-T[/QUOTE]
hv found a set of 430 challenge wheels with hubs n centre lock nuts. will these be a direct fit on the 360 cs or is some modification reqd. also are there any issues with the centre lock nuts

 

Impressive to see the gains realized from an upgrade as simple as an improved exhaust system. Does an aftermarket exhaust on a Ferrari affect the resale value in any way? Only wondering, as most vehicles' prices are pushed down. Would be nice to acquire a 360 at a lower cost with the added bonus of a tubi. Thats a win win .

 

I don't think it will affect the resale value in negative way if the mods are desirable mods such as high flow cats or proven exhaust such as Tubi. Before I purchased my 360, I was hoping to find a car that already had high flow cats and Tubi or Capristo exhaust already installed, but no luck. So I ended up with a bone stock 360.

The stock 360 is a little bit sluggish in lower RPM. It really needs high flow cats, I believe the advertised 20~40lb ft torque gain is real.

After I had high flow cats installed, the car just revs so much faster and car has much...sharper throttle responds. There is no more holes in entire powerband. My daily driver reaches maximum torque at 1500~1800rpm (450lb ft torque). Even compare to that, my 360 can rocket off the line without breaking a sweat (no more little pause before 3.5k rpm). It pulls like freight train now compare to stock.

 

are you sure the high flow cat has improved your low end torque? technically speaking, the high flow cat should reduce back pressure, and reducing back pressure will benefit the high rpm, in expense of low end torque lost.
Can anyone confirm this?

 

Thanks for all the info. I suppose getting a stock, seemingly unmolested car isn't so bad. That way you can start on a fresh canvas and make it your own.

 

reducing back pressure helps increase torque & HP.
increasing back pressure does not add torque & HP.

Rgds,
Vincenzo

 

I do not want to burst anyones bubble, but I have been taking apart, rebuilding, and doing mods to cars for 38 years, and on a modern NA engine you can only do so much to gain power other than a supercharger or a turbo, The other enemy is weight and once you take the car apart you can loose weight but your car (I know this since I have one myself), if it is like mine can become a street racer, but it is likely worthless to anyone but you. Regardless of what the dynos tell you, or you butt meter (most of that is in your mind, you think its faster, so it is), you're not likely to feel any changes less tha 10% in real world driving. I have spent a lost probably close to a million dollars over the course of my life on cars and the things I've done to them. My advise, do mods if you like the look or the sound, do not do it thinking your car will be something other than what it is.

 

well said

want more HP - buy a faster car!

Rgds,
Vincenzo

 

i think the mids n highs definitely improved when i put in the cats with my tubi ngt exhaust. the lows i think didnt change since i was running the tubi with reduced backpressure already.its also a bit subjective as to when low ends and mid begins but overall the change is really marked n fantastic!

 

This comment is a bit unreasonable IMO. I have modded many... cars in the past from 600rwhp Supra to Supercharged NSX. I daily drive a E92 335i with JB3. The "right" mods can dramatically increase fun factor and speed of a car. Some cars just respond better to mods than others.

Yes, it is more difficult to obtain power gain or free up power from a naturally aspirated engine. I do agree it takes 5~10% of gain in order to feel seat of pants difference. Therefore, I am quite pleased with the high flow cats and stock exhaust combo.

I have no problem ditching a mod if there is no improvement. The aftermarket exhaust I purchased for my 360 was light and pretty, but performance wise it was a complete piece of junk. I have no problem admitting that I wasted $3k and lots of trouble for nothing other than power loss and a lighter wallet. But there are mods that clearly works well for the 360.

 

Argento,
Which exhaust did you put on the car that you were unhappy with?

Rob

 

a well egineered car is a fully balanced 'system'.

increase HP?
Sure, it can be done - no problem.

~ what about brakes?
~ what about half shafts?
~ what about gear size?
~ what about chassis strength?
etc etc etc

Ferrari are a well engineered 'system' - truly, the best way to get more HP is to get it in a faster car.... like a 430


rgds,
Vincenzo

 

Rob,

I had the Timate Titanium exhaust. It is light and loud, that is about it. Feels like the car lost noticeable amount of power throughout the entire rpm range, even in high rpms. The car had a nasty big lag prior to 4500rpm that is far worse than any turbo charged cars I had driven including T61 Single Supra.

I still have this exhaust. It is so bad that I don't even have heart to put it up for sale. I am just going to eat the loss (exhaust, installation, uninstallation cost, etc).