360 Modena consistent misfire on cyl 1,8,4,5 | FerrariChat
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360 Modena consistent misfire on cyl 1,8,4,5

Discussion in '360/430' started by gobuffs2002, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. gobuffs2002

    gobuffs2002 Karting

    Aug 7, 2010
    242
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    John
    #1 gobuffs2002, Sep 29, 2013
    2002 360 Modena, just completed a new clutch, new headers (the OEM headers, bank one had a cracked air injector port, and the right bank the mini cat had started to disintegrate) and spark plug change. I am now getting Cyl 1,8,4,5 misfiring. It's usually the same cylinders and does not happen on each drive. The engine sounds great and runs great. I do get the goofy start where the engine, when cold, will start on one bank for 10 seconds and then the other bank kicks in. As far as I can tell the misfire codes do not appear then but later on in the drive at higher rpm's. The codes do not appear on every drive. Here is the report from the odb2 scanner.

    I do get a periodic slow down light from either a bad thermocouple and/ or cat ECU on bank 1 that on working on to resolve.

    BTW, no misfires before the work done on the car.

    Guys, any thoughts or suggestions.


    Diagnostic Report


    Created by TouchScan - OCTech, LLC OBD2 Diagnostic Software, OBD Software, Scan Tools | OBDSoftware.net

    Date: 9/29/2013 11:52:48 AM

    VIN: Not Available

    Monitor Status Report


    Name Continuous Available Complete
    Misfire Yes Yes Yes
    Fuel System Yes Yes Yes
    Components Yes Yes Yes
    Catalyst No Yes Yes
    Heated Catalyst No No No
    Evap System No Yes Yes
    Secondary Air System No Yes Yes
    AC Refrigerant No No No
    Oxygen Sensor No Yes Yes
    Oxygen Sensor Heater No Yes Yes
    EGR System No No No

    MIL On
    Number of Stored Codes: 1
    US State: None

    This vehicle is not ready for emissions testing.

    Reason
    MIL On
    Stored trouble codes have been detected
    Trouble Code Report


    Code Type Status Description
    P0421 PowerTrain Stored Warm Up Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold
    P0300 PowerTrain Pending Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
    P0301 PowerTrain Pending Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
    P0308 PowerTrain Pending Cylinder 8 Misfire Detected
    P0304 PowerTrain Pending Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
    P0305 PowerTrain Pending Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
    Additional Information

    PID Description Value Units

    Service $01 - Powertrain Diagnostic Data


    PID Description Value Units
    SAE 0x03 Fuel system status Closed-loop, using oxygen sensor feedback to determine fuel mix
    SAE 0x04 Calculated load value 3.92 %
    SAE 0x05 Engine coolant temperature 195.8 F
    SAE 0x06 Short term fuel % trim - Bank 1 0.78 %
    SAE 0x07 Long term fuel % trim - Bank 1 0.78 %
    SAE 0x0C Engine RPM 1049.5 RPM
    SAE 0x0D Vehicle speed 0 MPH
    SAE 0x0E Ignition timing advance for #1 cylinder 4.5
    SAE 0x0F Intake air temperature 118.4 F
    SAE 0x10 Mass air flow rate 0.73 lb/min
    SAE 0x11 Absolute throttle position 2.75 %
    SAE 0x12 Commanded secondary air status Atmosphere/off
    SAE 0x13 Oxygen sensors present Bank 1: Sensor 1, Sensor 2, Bank 2: None
    SAE 0x15 Oxygen sensor voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 2) 0.52 V
    SAE 0x15 Short term fuel trim (Bank 1, Sensor 2) -1 %
    SAE 0x1C OBD requirements to which vehicle or engine is certified OBD and OBD II
    SAE 0x34 Oxygen sensor 1 lambda wide range (current probe) 0.99
    SAE 0x34 Oxygen sensor 1 current wide range 127.96 mA
    Custom 0x00 Input voltage read by the scan tool 13.7 V

    Service $02 - Freeze Frame Report


    PID Description Value Units
    0x02 Freeze frame DTC P0421
    0x03 Fuel system status Closed-loop, using oxygen sensor feedback to determine fuel mix
    0x04 Calculated load value 9.41 %
    0x05 Engine coolant temperature 181.4 F
    0x06 Short term fuel % trim - Bank 1 1.56 %
    0x07 Long term fuel % trim - Bank 1 0 %
    0x0C Engine RPM 3160 RPM
    0x0D Vehicle speed 32.93 MPH

    Service $05 - Oxygen Sensors


    Sensor Available
    Bank 1 - Sensor 1 Yes
    Bank 1 - Sensor 2 Yes
    Bank 1 - Sensor 3 No
    Bank 1 - Sensor 4 No
    Bank 2 - Sensor 1 No
    Bank 2 - Sensor 2 No
    Bank 2 - Sensor 3 No
    Bank 2 - Sensor 4 No

    Sensor Description Value Minimum Maximum Units Result
    Bank 1 - Sensor 1 TID $81 - Manufacturer Defined 127 90 255 Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 1 TID $82 - Manufacturer Defined 128 90 255 Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 1 TID $83 - Manufacturer Defined 92 15 205 Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 1 TID $84 - Manufacturer Defined 136 0 255 Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 2 TID $01 - Rich to lean sensor threshold voltage (constant) 0.58 0 1.275 V Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 2 TID $02 - Lean to rich sensor threshold voltage (constant) 0.58 0 1.275 V Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 2 TID $07 - Minimum sensor voltage for test cycle (calculated) 0.01 0.005 0.385 V Pass
    Bank 1 - Sensor 2 TID $08 - Maximum sensor voltage for test cycle (calculated) 0.745 0.48 1.005 V Pass

    Service $06 - On-Board Monitoring


    Component Description Value Minimum Maximum Units Result
    Component Id $01 TID $01 - Manufacturer Defined 2237 4096 N/A Fail
    Component Id $01 TID $03 - Manufacturer Defined 89 64 N/A Pass
    Component Id $0D TID $05 - Manufacturer Defined 0 N/A 500 Pass

    Service $09 - Vehicle Information


    General Information

    Description Value
    Vehicle Identification Number Not Available
    Calibration ID - $11 197913.000
    Calibration ID - $14 197913.000
    Calibration ID - $19 3139363938362020
    Calibration ID - $19 202020
    Calibration Verification Number - $19 00C92E00
     
  2. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
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    Trent
    #2 Trent, Sep 29, 2013
    1. Spark plug gaps set incorrectly
    2. COPs (coil over packs, not the police), got wet because you washed the engine, if you washed it
    3. COPs not seated to plugs securely
    4. COPs electrical harness not seated correctly
    5. COPs just going bad, they do eventually fail, and the stress of a plug change was just too much for them.
    6. You forgot to screw the nipple on the top of the spark plugs, hey its happened.

    Debug steps;
    1. Swap COP_Cyl_1 for 2, and see if the OBD2 code changes.
    2. While you have COP_Cyl_1 out, may as well pull the plug and check the Gaps.
     
  3. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #3 vrsurgeon, Sep 29, 2013
    As Trent said above, swap coil packs.. See if it solves problem. If so get 4 new from micks garage.

    If not coil then consider spark plug replacement, if not either then check the intake plenum seals by spraying carb cleaner on the intake.
     
  4. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    #4 Skidkid, Sep 29, 2013
    I will add to the list improperly tightened plugs. If you didn't use a torque wrench and/or they loosened up you will get those symptoms.
     
  5. gobuffs2002

    gobuffs2002 Karting

    Aug 7, 2010
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    #5 gobuffs2002, Sep 29, 2013
    Good input guys, thank you. Stay tuned.....

    Curt, who is micks garage?
     
  6. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #6 mello, Sep 30, 2013
    You did replaced the spark plugs with PMR8B and not the PMR8A right?
     
  7. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #7 vrsurgeon, Sep 30, 2013
  8. gobuffs2002

    gobuffs2002 Karting

    Aug 7, 2010
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    #8 gobuffs2002, Sep 30, 2013
    Steve, correct, the replacement plugs were from fresh from Ricambiamerica PMR8B. Thanks Curt, for the heads up. Is mick's garage quick in shipping and reasonable in shipping cost to the USA?
     
  9. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    #9 tbakowsky, Sep 30, 2013
    Check your intake gaskets..for air leaks..smoke test is the best way to do it.
     
  10. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #10 mello, Sep 30, 2013
    Check the condition of the charging system (battery and alternator). Low voltage = erratic ECU operations and low coil voltage.
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    28,563
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    #11 fatbillybob, Sep 30, 2013
    John,

    Your obd tester is very powerful. It looks to be pulling up mode 6 data. Does anyone know or do mechanics like Howie above ever seen top secret Ferrari mode6 data list? For those who do not know the DTC you pull up like p0154 and p1154 are obd mode 1 where the DTC are stored in obd mode 3. Mode 6 is a refined trouble code set that is manufacturer specific sort of like a pre-pending code set that when it triggers mode1 codes will point to where the real problem may lie.
     
  12. gobuffs2002

    gobuffs2002 Karting

    Aug 7, 2010
    242
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    John
    #12 gobuffs2002, Oct 1, 2013
    Guys, just a point of clarification, I was not having misfire codes before the spark plug change and clutch job. Oh, I also upgraded to the CS TCU. BTW, the CS TCU is awesome.

    Steve, no battery problems that I know of. It always starts.

    If there were intake gasket leaks wouldn't the engine run rough? The car runs great and I really do not notice the misfire. I only know because the CEL light comes on.

    FBB, I'd love go know the Mode 6 codes myself.

    Thanks everyone.
     
  13. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
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    #13 FerrariDublin, Oct 1, 2013
    Mode 6 codes might be a bonus but it seems to me that you have managed to interrogate only one of the two ECUs so there might be other codes that are available to be read.

    Your slow down problem is quite likely to be a perished cable on one of the thermocouples having "let go" due to being moved around as part of the clutch / exhaust change. If you search for FatBB's "SDECU" thread you can diagnose which one is faulty (or if actually the ECUs) and replace only as necessary.

    Misfire codes with good running? Maybe you have only an ECU problem and not an engine problem? Have you done plug chops to see the condition of all plugs? If possible do it immediately after some hard running.

    Check all earth points that may have been disturbed in the clutch / manifold changes.

    Check all earth points full stop for multiple codes generally I think is good advice actually!

    Oh! Mick's Garage is an Irish company which happens to service the UK market also! We gotta' sing our own praises whenever we can! :D
     
  14. gobuffs2002

    gobuffs2002 Karting

    Aug 7, 2010
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    #14 gobuffs2002, Oct 1, 2013
    Greg, thank you. What is a "plug chop"? I'll look at FBB's write up on the SDECU. I'll be swapping the thermocouples this weekend and see which bank the thermocouple code points to.
     
  15. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #15 FerrariDublin, Oct 2, 2013
    Take the car for a decent run to get it thoroughly warmed up then make a few WOT runs at high RPM and on the last run kill the ignition and let the car coast down to a halt. Wait for it to cool sufficiently and take out the plugs and inspect them. If you really have a problem it may well be evident by the condition of the plugs.

    An OBD reader should be able to tell you if the SD is for Bank 1 or 2. You can test the thermocouple resistance and if one side is "open" and the other "closed" that will tell you it's the thermocouple and not the little ECU.

    Best of luck but do read FBB's thread, it's very informative as regards other work-arounds and even a replacement possibility.
     
  16. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    #16 DonJuan348, Oct 2, 2013
    I had a similar issue and I switch to auto lite iridium plugs $2 each and that solved it
     
  17. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #17 FerrariDublin, Oct 2, 2013
    Actually, it strikes me that the first thing to fix / isolate / work-around is the the slow-down light. For all you know it's that which is causing the misfire codes due to the fuel/ignition being cut from time to time.
     
  18. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #18 mello, Oct 2, 2013
    what's the autolite #?
     
  19. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    #19 DonJuan348, Oct 2, 2013
    Xs4303 ...ticked me that mechanic changed them in major ...have to buy another set
     
  20. Ferrari Spider

    Ferrari Spider Karting

    Jan 16, 2012
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    #20 Ferrari Spider, Dec 13, 2013
    I am about to order these for my car, can someone please explain the difference between these two? Mine's a 2001 360 spider
     
  21. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #21 mello, Dec 14, 2013
    The PMR8B is double platinum (center and ground electrode), PMR8A is single platinum (center electrode only).
     
  22. Ferrari Spider

    Ferrari Spider Karting

    Jan 16, 2012
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    #22 Ferrari Spider, Dec 14, 2013
    Thanks for the quick reply. However, when i tried to order these it says the PMR8B is not compatible with a 2001 360 spider but the PMR8A is compatible..... below are both listings and theyre both same price, can someone please confirm i just dont want to order the wrong part.



    NGK Laser Platinum Dual Platinum Spark Plugs PMR8B 6378 Set of 8 | eBay




    NGK Laser Platinum Dual Platinum Spark Plugs PMR8A 5851 Set of 8 | eBay
     
  23. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    #23 mello, Dec 14, 2013
    You can Look it up on ricambi to confirm part. Go with the 8b. You cannot go wrong with the double platinum.
     
  24. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #24 FerrariDublin, Dec 15, 2013
    The B is just the "improved" model. From recollection both the centre electrode and the ground pin are platinum coated on the B, only one on the A.
     
  25. Ferrari Spider

    Ferrari Spider Karting

    Jan 16, 2012
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    #25 Ferrari Spider, Dec 15, 2013
    Ok ill go ahead and order B, although their listing does say that B will not be compatible with my car. Im sure its been tried and tested by many fellow members on here so i should be ok :)
     

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