360 and brake bleeding

I don't know why you'd need the diagnostic tool. Even on ABS equipped cars, there's a seperate tool to cycle the ABS while bleeding, but even then, it's not entirely detrimental to bleed w/out cycling the ABS. Simply follow the bleeding patter/sequence listed in your manual, and you'll be fine. Who told you, that you'd need the SD2, and why?

 

I completely replaced my brake fluid without the SD2, and ran a track day a week later, no issues at all.

Gary

 

Just don't turn on the ignition while you're doing it!

 

when we were at Sears one of the 360 drivers was complaining about brake fade and FoSF's mechanic bled the breaks at the pit wall. Someone pumping the pedal while he bled the air out of the calipers. No electronic device was used, just a can with a couple of tubes and a wrench.

 

Without the SD it will not bleed the ABS or ASR circuits. You can bleed the calipers in the old manner, but not the rest of the system.
Dave

 

Yet another way they have come up with to bleed more than just your breaks.

 

Suck out the old fluid in res then put a pressure bleeder on,super tools use them on everything,paid £500 for ours but you can get them cheaper for DIY use,

cheers
Dale.

 

Good one!

 

One can use an SDII, but it takes more time and is a PITA.

By all means, do it the old fashioned but reliable way, foot on the brake pedal, bleeder bottle on the fittings, inner, then outer.

With Challenge, I used to use three guys, one in the driver's seat calling out "UP... open, DOWN... closed" for brake pedal position. Bleed an entire side of the car at the same time, one crew at a front brake, one crew at a rear brake. The person on the brake pedal front does the calling out, "UP" and the brake bleeder person acknowledges the call be answering back "open" when the pedal is up, and then the front brake person cracks the fitting open, the person at the rear just does as told, etc. Brake pedal guy calls "DOWN" when the pedal is to the floor, depressed at a slow rate. Fittings are closed and bleeder guy says "CLOSED". etc. Mind the reservoir level. Rinse, repeat...


Best regards,

Rob Schermerhorn

 

How often do you guys bleed your 360 brakes?
And do you see much bubbles/air when you do?

 

How often do you guys bleed your 360 brakes?


I am sticking to once a year unless I start feeling fade on the pedal.

 

Dealer is full of it!

There are fancy power bleeder setups that can cost you hundreds, but I've been using one of these:
Motive Power Bleeder. for over a year now, and it's worked perfectly.
It eliminates the need to pump, maintains constant pressure and fills the resevoir all at once. Overall, I much prefer using a power bleeder v. pumping the pedal. Getting a seal on the m/c can be a bit tricky, which is why I advise on wrapping everything securly w/ a plastic grocery bag, and placing a "catch can" below as well. Lastly, there's a rubber grommet/seal included with the bleeder that goes b/w the m/c and the bleeder cap. Make sure that's in place before you pressurize the system.
Good luck,
Hubert

 

As Rex stated, using the SD is a PITA! Most of the air will be in the calipers because that is the source of the heat.
Even when all is done properly with the foot method there are many times when the SD method will give a harder pedel. If the pedel was hard to start with and the fluid got to boiling in the calipers, then the foot / pump method will work fine.
You could have heard a pin drop in the class room at the factory when the trainer told all of us that you needed an SD to completely bleed the system.
Dave

 

That is a bunch of bulls***, I saw FoSF technician do it the old fashioned way right at the pitwall, with someone at the pedal and he with a wrench at the caliper. It is such a simple thing to get rid of the air bubbles in the line...

 

Dave and Rexrcr,

Help me understand the ABS system. When you bleed w/o key on you bleed only the calipers and not that well. when you key on the pump comes into play. when you bleed the rxrcr way and say "down" the pump often comes on by the time the pedal is at the bottom. Then if you hold the down position, tighten the bleeder, move pedal up and then bleed again (after the pump stops) repeating this system with key "On" the pump cycles the fluid through all the valves in the ABS. So what is the dealer talking about with the SD2? Also, what can possibly go wrong? There can be no major problem. If the fluid all comes out to a dry system you just have to put more fluid in and bleed out the air. What is the big deal? I can see no damage by doing this. I do this on all ABS cars for a rock hard pedal all the time. I have also watched 360C guys with the SD@ never use it to bleed or fully replace brake fluid.

To the rest of the FC crew,

Finally, just for information sake if you bleed often you will always have clean fluid in your system which makes for fewer need of total replacement of fluid attemps. And the reason to routinely bleed is everytime before a day on the track and even on the track when you are abusing your brakes and you get brake fade.

 

I have never had a problem bleeding the brakes on any Ferrari. You use the key on and hold pedal pressure method. It works just like a pressur bleeder, you don't even have to pump. The ABS system does the bleeding for you. Just don't drain out the resivor cause it comes out fast and hard. Fill after each wheel has been bled and you'll be fine.

 

Well, this is a bit of a grey area, as I have never had the need to dig in deep enough to analize how the system is designed. When the 99's were first out, the was a recall on the ABS valve. Incrediably complex network of valves and passages. This unit is mounted just above the steering rack behind the trunk panel. What had us all supprised was that Ferrari had us dissamble this valve and put a new cover, with 20 some check valves, springs and plungers dangling from it. This had a very real chance for failure as the recall had us open up this valve and replace the components with the body inplace in a very dirty enviroment. The procedure for bleeding the system after it was all opened up was with the SD, and never a bleeder was opened. As with most warrenty repairs, Ferrrai paid a very small amount of time to do this, and there was never time to inspect the system close enough to fully understand it. So, the real answer to your question is I do Not know why.
There have been a number of cars that we did the manual bleed on that never had a firm pedel until the SD was used (new cars durning the PDI). Trust me when I say that Ferrari wouldnt pay for something unless it was a needed step, and they insisted on this. When air is in the calipers the manual system works just fine. I did a bleed with the SD on a Euro 360 a few weeks ago that had at least 3 bottles of fluid blead through it at the track and the pedel felt fine, that is until the SD method was done. Big differance after that. It would take a great deal of time tracing the hyd's to fully understand the system. Completely differant system than the 348 / 355, as the ASR is incorporated in this one. Simply put I have not had the need yet to spend that time to draw this one out and see why the tester is ness. for bleeding the ABS / ASR circuits.
I too bleed the brakes at the track with the manual system, as any air will be in the calipers as this is the heat source. I remember back to some discussions in class at FNA where the Fo Houston techs were having problems with the Challange cars, and only the SD system of bleeding would solve it. Some day in the future the need to understand will be there, then I could answer accurately.
Dave

 

The problem with the 360 is that the reservoir is easy to empty without noticing...as you can only see one side of it.

The quickest, easiest, most failsafe and reliable way is to use a pressure bleed.

Operating the ignition will have no effect, and no pedal applications are necessary.

One man can do the whole car...including M/cyl, in about 1 hour...on his own, so long as the pressure bleed tool is working.

I've adapted my cooling system pressure tester to fit the reservoir cap. It simply needs pumping up a couple of times during the job.

But, it is SO easy to drain the hidden side of the reservoir if you are sloppy........and then it can be a problem.

And just to clarify....it's not the "bleeding" that's important on track cars...it's simply changing the fluid. Bleeding implies removing air. 360C does not boil it's fluid, it just goes off after a few months/extreme cycles.

SD2 can stay at the dealer! Even if you did buy one somewhere, you'd still have to constantly upgrade and evolve the software....just leave it to the dealers and have them do any tricky diagnosis when you need it.

 

3/8 drive snap on torque wrench's go down to 5lb's,
im sure there are cheaper alternitives though,

cheers
Dale.

 

what would these be ??

I mkight be interested ... any pics or anything ?

-a

 

I agree, the main reason to bleed with the sd2 Is if you have completly drained the system or have introduced air into the abs valving. for the most part, system can be bled in the ways previously recommended (i.e. pressure bleeder or manually).


regards, Jim