348: "Lambda Regulation" error code--What does this mean? | FerrariChat

348: "Lambda Regulation" error code--What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 348SStb, Nov 29, 2004.

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  1. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    What problem do I have if my "Check Engine" light on bank 5-8 is showing a code for "Lambda Regulation"? I don't know what "Lambda Regulation" is.

    Also, I didn't get a code for a bad Lambda sensor this time on that bank, but I got one the last time.

    I have no cats on my car (I've got Tubi test pipes)... do Lambda sensors still matter?
     
  2. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,562
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Lambda regulation is the mixture fine tuning the lambda sensor (O2 sensor) is used for. It just keeps the miture at optimal (about 14;.7 fuel/air mixture) at low power, maybe 20% throttle. If it is not working, the engine will run richer than it should. With no cats on the car to overheat, that probably only means reduced fuel milage, although it might cause the plugs to soot up. Why the code for regulation and not the sensor is on I don't know....
     
  3. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Thanks Mark.

    Where are my other 348 helpers?
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,509
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Dave -- One (relatively easy) thing you might try is measuring the voltage between the outer case of the offending O2 sensor and the "ground" that the injection system is using (should be low -- like less than 0.1 VDC) during warm idle.

    The signal from the (single) O2 sensor active lead (measured relative to ground) should be a slow sinusoid (period of 1~2 sec) going between 0 VDC (ground) and +1 VDC during warm idle. I know you probably won't have an oscilloscope, but if you just measure it with a voltmeter you should see the reported value banging around between 0 to +1 VDC during warm idle (e.g., if it's pinned at a constant value during warm idle you'll know that something's wacky with either the actual fuel delivery or the O2 sensor itself).

    Since you have one side not reporting this problem, you can make the same measurements on that side to see if they are similar or not.

    Just some suggestions...
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    36,754
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    Brian Crall
    It means that the O2 sensor is operating out of parameters. It is trying too hard to either lean or enrichen the mixture to achieve a proper fuel mixture. It can be caused by a cyl miss, vacuum leak bad injector, you name it. It is usually a symptom of an underlying problem. Any time you are driving at a relatively steady state the O2 has authority for fuel mixture so it's proper operation is important. It can cause poor emissions, poor fuel mileage and loss of power. The underlying cause can cause who knows what. The boys in the white lab coats who designed that system had no idea of the wide variety of circumstances a car would be exposed to out in the real world so it is a common problem on early Motronic 2.7, so much so that many people just ignore it. That is OK as long as you be sure that there is not a serious problem causing it.
     
  6. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Thanks guys.

    I've experienced no loss of power. Thankfully no "Slow-Down" lights have come on. I've never actually had a "Slow-Down" light come on.

    But, the car kind of jerks a little while running, and the idle dances around at idle. I think the car is running rich--there's some smoke from time to time coming out of the exhaust.

    I should say also that a "throttle potentiometer" error showed up on bank 5-8, the same bank as the one with the lambda problems. I had the throttle potentiometer (throttle position sensor) on bank 1-4 replaced several months ago; maybe they didn't balance them.

    I made an appointment to have this stuff addressed, but I couldn't get anything before 2 weeks from today--December 13th.

    Is it okay/smart to drive the car?
     
  7. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
    The Brickyard
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    The Bad Guy
    Well I wouldn't drive it until you get the problem fixxed. The reason being that if you are running rich you can burn out the cats fast. Before you go changing parts out, have a look at the clip on connectors. There is a rubber boot that covers the back of the connector. Pull that back and then check the condition of the wires under it. Make sure that you don't have any that are coming out of the back of the pins. If you do, it will not send the proper signal to the ecu's and can cause the problem your having. Also have a look at the connections for the the O2 sensors. Those are located under the air box and oil filter. Check those for the same thing. The wiring in Ferrari's is known to be less than desirable. If everything in the wiring checks out fine then go ahead and replace the part. Also make sure that the connections are clean and making good contact while your at it.
     
  8. PassionIsFerrari

    PassionIsFerrari Formula 3

    Aug 15, 2004
    2,454
    I put a ground around the shell of the o2 sensor...as suggestion by a couple of people on this forum. used a hose clamp with a ground wire attached to it. Anybody else done this?
     
  9. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,578
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Also, as a lambda sensor ages, the response slows down, it becomes ‘lazy’ in it’s sinusoidal voltage trace. This is just a bad sensor.
    Which really means ‘don’t ignore it’, as only proper diagnosis will reveal actual cause.

    The ‘common problem’ in 348s is more likely electrical ground and pin connector issues. The 348 is no more or less susceptible to bad o2 sensors, it the actual electrical system itself. That said, proper preventative maintenance including cleaning contacts at connectors and grounds, plus proper diagnostics will go a very long way in maintaining reliability for your 348.

    Best regards,

    Rob
     
  10. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,578
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Did this as a crutch in '93-'94 on Challenge cars before we sorted the ground issues.

    It can help as the ground circuit requires less than 2 ohms.

    Best regards,

    Rob
     
  11. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    The car's at the shop; I'll let you guys know what they say when I get it back. Thanks for the help!
     
  12. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Well I heard from the shop today. I'm pciking up the car tomorrow (couldn't get over there today).

    The gentleman said that the throttle position sensors were not synchronized. Thank you, Ferrari of Long Island, for charging me several hundred dollars a few months ago to replace one of the sensors and then not synchronizing the two sensors afterwards.

    He was talking about the throttle position sensors and the oxygen sensors, and then he mentioned something about the voltage being "off" by .2 volts. I don't know what particular component of the car he was talking about; I will try to understand that tomorrow when I pick up the car. I need to get more technical!

    Anyway, he said he made some adjustments and that the car no longer wants to stall.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Good, I hope it stays out. I have always felt that it is better to find and resolve the issue (as can almost always be done) if possible than to resort to the electrical tape over the light.
     
  14. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Well, I got the car back.

    First, I want to commend Autosport Designs. Great people, great service, and very fair with pricing with respect to this experience.

    So apparently one of my oxygen sensors "was not plugged in." They cleaned the connection and plugged in the sensor.

    Also, the two throttle position sensors (a.k.a. throttle potentiometers) were not synchronized. One was off by some .2 volts, so they were played with and balanced.

    So I took the car.

    After a drive, I noticed that the car STILL wants to stall when slowing down to a stop :( The engine speed dips down to a precarious 500-600 RPMs. If I don't intervene the engine will stall.

    They told me to let them know what happens with this. I figured I'd give the car a few driving cycles before panicking. I switched the battery off and did the whole procedure of letting the car properly re-calibrate itself, so I'm hoping that the stalling problem will go away after a few driving cycles.

    Any thoughts on what is causing this stalling? I've driven the car 6500 miles in the past 10 months; and the car when operating properly doesn't ever want to stall--whether the air conditioning/heating system is on or not. I'd like to know what can be done to address the stalling problem.
     
  15. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

  16. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    When you recalibrated the ecu's, you did do it after the car sat all night, right? You need to make sure that the engine is stone cold when you do this. Since you did recalibrate the ecu's, you may need to adjust the idle control screw. It is really easy to do. If you look on the throttle linkage you will see the screw. Turn the car on and let it go through it's normal warm-up. Once the cooling fans have kicked on at least once your car should be plenty warm. After it is warm then you can mess around with the idle screw. Just turn it until you get the idle to the proper rpm's. Have fun. A word of caution, DO NOT mess with the screws that are on the throttle bodies. Only use the screw that is on the linkage
     
  17. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Ernie, I knew I could count on you.

    Actually, I turned the battery off when the car was warm. I let the car sit for several (maybe 5-6) hours, so the car was cold when I restarted it, but not stone-cold overnight-cold. Was that okay?

    I'm going to try to figure out where the idle screw is. I have both the car and the Worskshop Manual handy.
     
  18. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Ernie,

    Do you have a 348 Workshop Manual? If so, if you look on page C3, can you tell me where the idle screw is based on that page or provide me with any other visiual assistance?
     
  19. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Yeah if you let it sit for about six hours you'll be okay. If I remember correct the screw should be close to the air box. I can't remember if it is on the right or left side. Oh now that I think of it, before you mess with the idle screw have a look at the vacume tubes. Make sure that all of them are hooked up. If they all are hooked up propperly and you still have the problem then mess with the screw.
     
  20. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Sorry but I'm not at home to look at the manual.
     
  21. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Ok thanks. My car is in bed for the night; I'll try to play with this stuff tomorrow. Thanks for the help, and if you get a chance to look at that Workshop Manual tonight or tomorrow, let me know.
     
  22. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
    The Brickyard
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    The Bad Guy
    Okay I gave you some mixxed up info on the idle adjustment. Last night when I got home I looked at the manual, well The adjustment screw I was talking about only adjusts the throttle linkage. If you look on C34, you'll see the diagram. The screw I was telling you about is number 5, the one you really need to adjust is number 4. You will need to loosen the lock nut, number 3. To get to the adjustment screws on both throttle bodies you will have to remove the tubes that are connected to the mas air flow sensors. However given all this info, you did say that the guys at the shop already adjusted the throttle bodies, so I wouldn't mess with the adjustment screws on the throttle bodies. The reason is that they also adjust the CO and NO gases. So if you get them out of balance you can screw up the exhaust emissions on your car. But if you want you can mess with adjustment screw number 5 to see what it does to the idle. You want the idle to be around 950 rpm. Just remember how many turns you use, so that if its doesn't do anything you can put it back to were it was originally set. But as I said before have a look at your vacume lines. You will see two of them on the front of the plenum and one on the back. The one on the back is for the intake comensation valve, and the two on the front are for the fuel pressure regulators. Check those out before you mess with any adjustments.
     

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