Would someone please read me the EPROM chip type (or photograph one) from the 348's Motronic 2.7 ECU's? I'd like to know what flavor of EPROM reader/burner that I need to buy to view/change my hex dumps. Starting point: http://130.240.16.109/~rotax/motronic/motronic.html
ND: The Bosch ID # on the stock chip I have is 1 267 356 497. (car is '92 TS) . This is on the tape covering the window. Other #s, printed on the chip itself are: B57 701 and U118022MC. Nowhere do I see any #s even remotely close to the ones you posted. Jimbo Image Unavailable, Please Login
Are you sure that's the 2.7? The date stamped on the outside of the chip pictured is 1989, could that possibly be the Bosch 2.5 system? Then again, I dougt that the numbering system would change that drastically from a version upgrade at any rate.
348_Spiderman wrote: >Are you sure that's the 2.7? The date stamped on the outside of the chip pictured is 1989, could that possibly be the Bosch 2.5 system? Then again, I dougt that the numbering system would change that drastically from a version upgrade at any rate.< It most definitely is 2.7. I'm sure the date is when the basic chip was made; and the Bosch ID # refers to the maps on the chip. Jimbo
The Motronic 2.7 was build nearly the same time as the 2.5. You find in both ecus chips from under 1989. The µC of the ecus are very old intel 8bit 8051 onces. Wich are from 1986 and older, there are dsps in it developed 1980. The Sticker on the Chip says what software version is in the eprom. The Bosch number on the eprom can be decoded to the normal eprom types. In this case an 27c256. All M2.5 and M2.7 have 27c256. The m2.7 for turbo boosted cars with boost control have to the 27c256 an second eprom 87c257. To the Hexdump change thing. Don't kill your engine. Without the right equipment you can't do any good thing in it. At least you need and wideband 02 system, an dyno, different temperature gauges, knock monitor and an ignition angle / retard monitor.And most important an real time ecu datalink. The locations of the mappings and data are not equal in every ecu it depends on the software number on the chip so the locations from the volvo system are not like in your 348 ecus. Even if the ecu is the same f.e. two M2.7 from two different engines the data is different not only in the values overall. To the 2.7 or 2.5 thing , he said 92 ts so it can't be an 2.7 they are first in on 1993 i think. Anyway it doesn't matter because m2.5 and m2.7 normaly use the same eprom (27c256). ________________________ Samy
Right. Thanks, everyone. The "B57" on the chip in the photograph is the special Bosch57 EPROM used for our 348's. The actual chip underneath is either an M27C256B-10F1 or else an M27C256B-90F6, the only difference being the programming speed on your Eprom burner. I'll be using this eprom reader/burner to first obtain the hex dumps and then perhaps later to contemplate making actual changes (maybe): http://www.batronix.com/electronic/circuits/eeprommer.shtml It's just $120 to have your own reader/burner, which is worth it just for making backup chips (they do age/degrade and they can be burned up). That same company sells the blank M27 IC's for four Dollars each (you'll need at least 2). Pretty cheap, all in all, to make your own backup fuel-maps and see your car's graphs on-screen (the fuel air and ignition dwell maps on these chips can be loaded into a spreadsheet for a 3d graph). Frankly, I think that we should all have backups of our own ECU chips. Lots of things can destroy what we are using while driving everyday.
Right. I had posted 27C512 in the title. That was a guess, but too modern. The actual chip from your photograph is a 27C256 (256k instead of 512k memory).
There's already some freeware on-line for reading and 3d graphing your Motronic A/F and ignition maps that are stored on our B57's: http://www.atlantisconsultingllc.com/atlantis.php?page=Motronic%20Editor and [email protected] offers an even better Bosch Motronic fuel/ignition map editor. And for $800 you can connect your PC to Motronic ECU's to monitor everything in real time: http://www.vitesseracing.com/Catalog/944_951_968/Perfomance_Parts/Electronics/MoMonitor/momonitor.html Of course, one of things that I'll be doing is a simple .bin to .bin comparison of various 348 Motronic 2.7 B57 chips (e.g. left versus right ECU chips...any differences?, 348 spider versus 348 TS chips, vs 348 Competizione, vs TAP1, vs CCC, vs Powerchip, vs Dimex, etc.). This basic step will show what differences exist between the maps (rpm limit, ignition advance, fuel maps, etc.). I don't think that I'll be crossing any legal lines to publish on F-chat the *differences* in chips. Of course I'm not going to burn new chips with the scanned .bin files or publish the actual chip contents...not my personality to wantonly violate copyrights and intellectual property...though I will be making a backup of my own chips and I may...may at some point come up with my own mapping.
Samy, You said "To the 2.7 or 2.5 thing , he said 92 ts so it can't be an 2.7 they are first in on 1993 i think" Thats wrong. M2.7 can be on earlier than 1993 cars. I have a 91 registered TS car 897XX that has Motronic 2.7 and had it from manufacture, not retrofitted. The M2.7 came in from I think VIN 86406 onwards.
the capacity is only 32 KByte, the "256" means Kbit, not Kbyte. The 27C256 EPROM is internal organized as 32768 x 8 bit = 256 Kbit = 32 KByte. Regards, Georg
You'll notice in the picture at the start of this thread that the 348 uses the B57 701 chip. Here are the other Bosch fuel mapping chips for A/F ECU's: Bosch comparison type package ----------------------------------------------------------------------- B57120 EPROM 27C64 DIL28 B57324 EPROM 27C32A DIL24 B57347 EPROM 27C64 DIL28 B57423 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57477 EPROM 27C64 DIL28 B57519 EPROM 27C64 DIL28 B57604 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57605 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57607 EPROM 27C128 DIL28 B57610 EPROM 27C128 DIL28 B57618 EPROM 87C257 DIL28 B57625 EPROM 2764A DIL28 B57654 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57696 EPROM 27C256 PLCC32 *** here you need an adapter PLCC32 to DIP32 B57701 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57764 EPROM 87C257 DIL28 B57808 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57922 EPROM 87C257 DIL28 B57960 EPROM 27C256 DIL28 B57995 EPROM 27C256 DIL28
NoDoubt the best chip came from the 94 348 spider and was used in the challenge cars aka challenge ecu. Later Ferrari updated the chip again when the 94 spyder ecus were all bought up. I have the latest ECU's and a buddy pulled the eprom copied it and put them in my old ecus and in his old ecu's. So a good way to update old ecus is to copy and burn new chips. It was very easy and very fast but i don't understand the technology...he was a techie. It would be nice to be able to program the eproms when real changes to the motor are done such as increased plenum flow via spacers to get the sepcial euro plenum height but keep the intake charge cool using a phenolic spacer vs making a bigger plenum and running open challenge type exhausts, or even minor cam changes etc... Otherwise without motor changes there IMO is next to zero to be gained by reprograming eprom chips
Thanks, Dr. Carl. My eprom scanner should be here Monday. I'll first scan in my two 1994 348 Spider chips from the left and right A/F ECUs. Then I'll run a "compare" program on those two binary files. This will tell me if our two ECU's are identical or not. Then I'd like to get chips such as the upgrades that you mention. I'll scan them and run the same program to compare their binary files to my spider files. The freeware that I listed above graphs in 3D the fuel curve that is programmed in to our ECU chip maps, so I'll try to post one or more of our 348 fuel graphs to show the fuel curve versus engine RPM, battery voltage, engine load, throttle position, MAF voltage, etc. The more chips that I can obtain to scan and compare, the better. The 348 Competizione did little more than delete the cats, run two straight airboxes instead of our one OEM curved airbox, and change the ECU chips to more aggressive fuel mapping and ignition advance...so that would be nice to scan to compare. After all, Ferrari shipped the 348 Competizione's (often to Micheletto) from Modena with 360 hp each (and some were bumped up by Michelotto to 550hp). Anyway, once I get the eprom scanner and a few 348 chips, I should at least be able to dispel popular 348 ECU myths...and maybe...just maybe...expose some hidden "free" hp. It's cheap to burn chips (presuming that the changes don't blow an engine), so I haven't ruled that out once I figure out how to make my own fuel curve maps. I'd like to first study what's been done already, though.
The chips can *definately* be reprogrammed. You can enrich or lean any of the fuel maps (e.g. the idle when cold map, the idle when hot map, the partial throttle map, the full throttle map, etc.). You can change the ignition dwell, too. But it isn't the chip or ECU that cares about your engine mods. If the engine mods add more air such that your car would run lean without changes, then you want richer fuel curves. If you update your fuel pressure and injectors such that you are running rich, then you want your fuel curve to be leaned out. The maps are built to allow your fuel setting to be different at each RPM level...and you use different fuel maps for different conditions (high octane fuel, low octane fuel, running while still cold, running hot, partial throttle, full throttle, etc.). So you've got to inject your own brainpower into the chips. Tell the maps to be richer or more lean at various RPMs based upon your mods...or...based upon your A/F mixture measurements at various RPMs on a dyno, etc. You can also vary the ignition dwell/advance based upon RPM and load, from what I can tell so far.
OK, kinda cool. My Eprom reader/burner arrived early so I've scanned in my driver side and passenger side A/F ECU chips. For my 1994 Spider, both driver and passenger A/F mapping is/are identical. 100% twins. I did a binary comparison on every bit. The checksum from 0h to 07FFFh likewise yields 0611 for both chips. So for the 1994 Spider (and probably most/all 348's), there is no special "driver side" or "passenger side" A/F ECU. They are 100% interchangeable. Every chip inside both Motronic 2.7 boxes on both PC boards is also identical. There was probably some question on this matter simply because one of the A/F ECUs provides some functionality not covered by the other, but this must be due to what is wired into the electronic cable connections, as switching ECUs from one side to the other will have the other ECU performing the same "extra" functionality. Hey! Myth #1 is now cleared up. I'd like to scan in other, non-Spider 348 fuel maps. For you Fchatters who have aftermarket chips, please PM me for a mailing address. I can scan the chips in seconds and mail them right back to you same day. This will let me compare fuel mapping changes so that we can all see what was done for more (or less) power. Same goes for Fchatters with 348 TS fuel mapping, TB fuel mapping, GTS fuel mapping, Challenge, and especially 348 Competizione fuel mapping (please!). For your trouble I'll also give you a 3D map of your fuel curves once I figure out the freeware for that mapping graph. ...The 348 Research Project moves forward!
Have you gotten that Atlantis freeware to work? I can't get it to generate maps. I am pretty sure that is because the 951 Porsche uses a 256 chip (27c256 or equivalent). I am doing a 1995 F355, and I confirmed it uses 512 because the file size of the chip is 64K. Does the 348 use a 512? I think it is 256, so maybe you can use that freeware and I can't. Motronic 2.7 can't use any of the simple Rom emulators for OBD2, so honestly the best way to find the adresses (That I know of) is to compare chips. Even stock chips, comparing one year to another will help pinpoint offsets and tables. Jay
Yes, I've gotten the Atlantis software to work and have posted the 348 and Mondial T 2.5 and 2.7 fuel map graphs (to get the maps/graphs you have to first figure out the addressing so that you can build your own spc files)...and the software won't generate the spc files for you, you've got to do it by hand. The Motronic 2.5 and 2.7 for the 348 alone are setup vastly differently in their respective .spc files (so I'd expect vast differences to the 355). Yes, if you have other chips to compare, you'll be able to build your spc files faster. Motronic 2.7 Fuel Mapping ECU chips are marked "B57" for Bosch 57 fuel mapping (the map version is the number on the white tape in the pic below). These are DIP chips, also called DIL chips. They cost about $4 in blank form (go to batronix.com). The IC industry labels these empty chips (when new) as either an M27C256B-10F1 or else an M27C256B-90F6, the only difference in the last 4 digits being the programming speed on your Eprom burner (readers/ecus don't care). Image Unavailable, Please Login
ND, Were you ever able to change maps to do things like add more fuel if I opened up my exhaust to flow free etc..?
I can change the maps that I've found, but even so, I haven't been able to identify all of the maps that I've found (e.g. which one is idle when hot, which one is partial throttle when cold, which one is full throttle when warm, etc.). I need some non-Spider 348 Motronic 2.7 chips so that I can run compare programs on the chips. That will help me identify more of the air/fuel maps. So far, only one other fchatter has sent me chips, so unless I go buy some aftermarket chips (Taps, Superperformance, etc.), I'm pretty stuck in one place on my research so far. But yeah, I can change the timing advance and the air/fuel enrichment. I've made and tested 3 sets of chips so far and it's no trouble to change the maps and then burn new chips. I'd just prefer to have a lot more research under my belt before I let anyone else drive on any chips that I modify.
Any chance of getting the ECU tables and corrections published (as the information becomes available)? For me, I would probably opt for replacing the Motronic hard coded ECU for a more tuner friendly aftermarket ECU, perhaps Autronic, Motec or Pectel. In such a case, the maps would be a big help in getting started. A few guys have mentioned going with ITB (indiv throttle bodies) on their cars... I would doubt the Motronic could be easily reconfigured to manage that. Seems to me that aftermarket EMS would be the only way to go.. your thoughts? J
Not enough data. I need other Motronic 2.7 chips to compare maps. Without the data, who knows if Motronic or alternative systems are the way to go...
