308 Winter Maintenance / Cam Seals / Cam Drive Bearing | Page 3 | FerrariChat

308 Winter Maintenance / Cam Seals / Cam Drive Bearing

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jford10014, Nov 23, 2005.

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  1. UnVinRougeSVP

    UnVinRougeSVP Karting

    Jan 27, 2004
    117
    Southeastern PA
    Full Name:
    Ted
    This is all very good informatiom. Does anyone know if this outer bearing removal procedure will work for a Boxer? I am guessing that the bearings and config. is similar to a V-8 car and the tools and pullers should equally apply. I want to do this on my next engine-out service.

    Thanks
     
  2. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Ted,
    Just doublechecked with Ferrari.UK's site.

    The BOXER engine uses the same cam drive gear bearing setup as the 308s. It even uses the same outer bearing as the 2V injected 308s: #175260 BEARING (SEALED)

    Didn't check the tensioner, but odds are it's the same also.

    So this procedure will work for your car. Did you see the tips I posted early in this thread?
     
  3. phild328

    phild328 Rookie

    Aug 2, 2004
    35
    Lebanon, PA
    I just put in an order for the parts. They will probably take a while to get here. The bearing is actually $120 a piece. So wow. Anybody have a better price. What is the ferrar.uk price?(I don't have access) #121274 The inner bearing is $10, good thing Ferrari made it so the outer wears out :)
    The woodruff key is $3. That is probably the cheapest f-part. The ring nut is $10.
    So I was looking at the parts diagram and I see that the shaft would press against the inner bearing in the block.
    But since it has maybe a 1/2in play, I should be able to do it without worrying about damage. So I wasn't thinking before. But here is the plan. I press the new bearing on using washers and tubes and the old ring bearing. Probably just on the inner race, but doesn't matter. Doesn't matter until it meets up with the outer casing. Then it is on to a plate-washer that od and id match the bearing. Then the plan is - pull the shaft out - measure the travel. With the bearing against the casing and the "press" (the washer, tube,ring nut) still in place, hammer on the end of the shaft (with soft protection) until the whole thing goes in by about or less than the measured amount. Then use the "press" to "pull" the shaft through by the measured amount. And then repeat, and repeat, and repeat until all the way in.
    This seems the safest way to me, what everyone else think?
     
  4. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
    Full Name:
    Jason
    Hi,

    Ok - got the bearings in. Here is how i did it. Grease the shaft and bearing. put the bearing on the shaft and using the ring nut and progressively thicker washers, turn the nut to push the bearing down the shaft.

    Keep going until the bearing goes into the hole and is flush with the casing.

    Then get the old bearing. Remove the metal inside the bearings so that you just have the inner/outer race and the balls. Grease this bearing and slide it onto the shaft. Go through the same routine with the washers until the old bearing is pressed up against the new bearing.

    Then using a block of wood and rubber mallet, tab the old bearing on all four sides. This has the effect of tapping the new bearing into the hole. Because the old bearing races are flush against the new bearing races it will not damage the new bearing.

    sykes tool off the old bearing. Put in the circlip.

    That's as far as I got - all pretty good.

    Then before putting the wood ruff key back in, I decided to work on the crank oil seal. Verell said to drill small holes in thr rubber part of the seal and insert nails to pull it out. I drilled the small holes, but had trouble getting the nails in. (I assume you put them in head first – so you can use the head to pull them out ?) I decided to try and use the sykes tool to pull it out. no luck - just bent the metal lip. I then spent two hours trying to use all kinds of things to get it out. Nightmare. It just won't move. I tried bending the metal lip outwards so I could grab it with pliers. No luck. Pliers just slip off.

    AGGGGGHHHHHHhhhhhhh.....

    If anyone has any suggestions I could use them. The amount of time I've spend on this bearing / oil seal part of the work is probably exceeding the time I spent taking the whole thing apart, changing the shift shaft seal, the oil pan gaskets and rebuilding the door locks.

    Any suggestions are incredible welcome at this point. I'm so close to starting to put the thing back together. I just have to take out this oil seal, pop in the new one and then reassemble.

    Thanks in advance

    JAson
    h
     
  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Sounds good so far!

    Umm, screws not nails to pull seals:


    Pan head sheet metal screws work well because the head is fairly large for the screw size. The screw body s/b about the same diameter, or even slightly smaller than the hole, so the threads fully engage in the seal body. If you don't use a slide hammer, you can pull directly on the screw heads with pliars, or wrap wire around them & pull on the wire, or slip a pry bar under the head...

    If you use wire, on a big seal like the front main seal, you could use 3 or 4 screws equally spaced around the gasket to even out the pull, but an even pull isn't too critical as you don't care what shape the old gasket somes out in ;)

    Whatever way you apply pull to the screws, that seal is gonna come right out..
     
  6. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    Ok - not sure what to do at this point.

    I've tried all morning to get this stupid seal out. I used the screws. Screw goes in fine. Pull with the pliers. Screw just comes out. I used a whole bunch of different types of screw - no luck. Everytime the screw just pulls out, damaging the lip of the seal and making it harder to use that same spot the next time.

    If you use screws that are to large, you can't get them into the "hole" without bending the metal lip inwards which defeats the point. I found a bunch of screws that were just the right size, but everytime I pull the screw, it just pops out and the metal lip of the seal bends outwards.

    I tried using the wire around the screw and that didn't work - same effect. I even tied the wire around the syskes tool puller to see if I could use that, but again screw just pops out.

    I don't own a slide hammer, but I suspect that if I used one, it would just have the same effect.

    In all this time, the seal displays no visble sign of movement. I can only assume that the last guy glued it in.

    I really don't know what to do at this point. The seal is damaged now to the point that I just can't ignore it. I guess the only option is to take the timing cover off so that i can push it from the inside. This i'm dreading.

    Nightmare.

    Really at a loss as to what to do. I guess I need to mentally prepare for attempting to remove the timing cover, or consider seaking some professional help.

    ANy thoughts welcome.

    Jason
     
  7. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Jason,

    Don't worry- you can do this without pulling the timing cover. Trust me- you don't want to do that.

    Have you tried to glue the screws to the seal? Maybe some epoxy, or superglue? Also- some heat would help. It sounds like it was glued in (like you were thinking) and some heat could loosen it up. If that doesn't work, could you get some needle-nosed pliers on any part of it and just take it out in pieces? Be careful not to scratch any of the mating surfaces.

    A slide hammer could actually work because the force is sudden, instead of gradual like the puller you are using.

    Please post a picture of how it looks now. Hopefully- someone much smarter than me will answer soon. There must be a better way than my ideas!

    Good luck, and keep us updated.
     
  8. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    #58 jford10014, Feb 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Hmmm- you might be able to get needle nosed vice grips on that outer metal flange. Your seal is different than the one on my car- it did not have this outer metal ring. Can you drill small holes in this ring to attach the screws?
    I might be missing something.
     
  10. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Definitely want to grab that outer metal flange & pull on it. The flange is probably what's stuck or glued in. Drill the holes in the flange & run the screws into it. Want to stay well away from the seal's lip & the surface it rides on, if you scratch the sealing surface on the crank gear the new seal can't work. Also try to not damage the sides of the hole the outer flange is in, altho it isn't quite so critical as there are ways of sealing it if the worst happens.
     
  11. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    #61 ham308, Feb 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I agree you should drill into the metal ring and screw into there. It'll definitely hold ok. Also agree it's not a good idea to damage the crank surface, ie. the future sealing surface.

    Mine looked similar...

    good luck
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
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    Jason
    Ok - here is the update.

    I tried again to get the seal out. No luck. I tried drilling the hole and inserting the screw - no luck. Just will not come out. I tried heating it, firstly with a hot air gun, and then with a torch, and went through the whole performance again, and still will not budge.

    I have no idea what is holding it in. I can only assume it's welded / cemented and crazy glued in. Nothing can pull it out.

    After a while wondering what to do, I came to the only logical conclusion which was that I need to push it from behind, which means the timing cover has to come out.

    I went then inside for lunch.

    After lunch, I started working on the timing cover. I removed the 7 13mm nuts from the "lower" timing cover studs. I then started the process of double nutting the studs out. The goal was to remove these studs, and then figure out what tools to buy to remove the oil pickup tube.

    6 out of 7 of the studs came out fine. The last one however was a nightmare. Double nutting just didn't work. In the end, after many attempts, the lower part of the thread stripped due to the double nutting attempts.

    At that point, I gave up and decided to have a rethink. It's a good job I didn't post this last night, as I would have been full of four letter words. Today I'm a little more objective about the situation.

    So - that's it - question is what to do next.

    I ordered today some stud extractors from the internet. perhaps when I get the extractors, the stud will just come out no problem. We'll see.

    Jas
     
  13. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Oh no- please please please proceed with caution! I'm sure you have read this nightmare/enlightening post:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28437&highlight=308+timing+gear+drive

    There must be a way for you to avoid removing the timing case- I'll think about it. Did you apply enough heat with the propane? Did you try the slide hammer on the screws? Epoxy set overnight?



    Which of the studs is fighting you? And yes- wait for the stud extractor- if it can be used on the one that is left.

    Pulling the oil pick-up tube is no problem- it's the three studs that hold it to the case that are the problem. Long 1/4" extentions, thin walled sockets, crow foot wrenches, cursing, heat, lock-tited double nutting, and cursing will get it done.

    Again- if this is the way you want to go, please be very careful to keep the last timing case stud from snapping. It could go suddenly and painfully.

    Mark everything ( i.e. drive gear shafts to timing case) before removing the cover. Your engine is at TDC, so the notches in the cover at each drive shaft should line up with a notch in the pulleys. Use a punch if possible- much better than paint- and more accurate. After marking, take pictures of each mark for referance during assembly.

    Keep us up to speed, and I'm sure others will be along soon.

    Anybody else ever ran into this problem?
     
  14. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    My 2 cents says you should try remove that seal. It will come out.

    If you can't drill it / screw into it / and pull it out, -

    I would firstly drill it and insert a screwdriver in order to lever it out with a twisting action against the aluminiun retaining boss in the block.

    And if that failed I'd use a Dremel grinder to slit the flat ring surface with several radial slits maybe 10 mm apart. The seal casing gets its strength from this flat ring. if you weaken this, it should be easier to twist the remaining cylindrical ring out. A small cold-chisel should do the job.

    Try not to get any debris / grinding dust inside the engine though.

    Removing the timing cover is a LONG job in comparison. Even LONGER if you are forced to take the engine out.


    Best of luck, Richard
     
  15. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Ditto,
    You s/b able to get that seal out, as others have just described..

    As you know, that STRIPING A TIMING COVER STUD IS A VEDDY BAD THING ;{

    If the stud pullers don't remove it, get a small (~6") pipe wrench. I've pulled a lot of recalcitrant studs with mine. Only studs that just kept stripping were the ones on JWise's engine.

    As a last resort before pulling the engine, & while there's still enough stud left to do it try this:
    Force a nut onto the stud any way it will go. Then use a MIG or TIG welder to weld the nut onto the stud. Most times you can then back the stud out using the nut.

    If not, then read the JWise thread very carefully as you're facing an engine pull!
     
  16. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    Thanks for the replies.

    I don't know what i'm going to do yet. Other than take a step back, re-evaluate, do some more research etc.

    I have read the JWise thread of your adventure with this. That was the thread which inspired me not to removing the timing cover in the first place. Before that thread there was debate over just changing the outer bearings vs doing the inners also.

    I actually re-read that thread today. (I have some questions - more on that in a mo)

    I ordered a bunch of stud removers. These are the ones I ordered. Until I actually see them, it's kind of hard to determine which one to use. They all seemed different, so I figured it would be a good addition to my tool collection.

    http://www.midwayautosupply.com/searchby.asp?txtSearch=LIS-19250&select1=part

    http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-v228690-~KDT1708?search_form=1

    http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-v228936-~OTC6987?search_form=1

    I understand the argument of trying to get the seal out. This makes sense. It just won't come out. My fear with proceeding down this path is seriously nicking the crank seal area and / or getting bits of rubber and metal dropped into the engine. The only thing that I haven't tried wrt removing the seal, is to do what Richard suggests - i.e. cutting it into pieces and trying to pull it out that way. Going down that route, the chances of getting bits of rubber / metal inside the engine seems to be high ? From reading the "jwise thread" you guys had the "ticking" caused by small bits of metal in the gears. I can't see, really, how you could do this without bits of debris dropping in the engine. Not only that, but you'd have to sleep at night wondering if bits of metal fell into the engine ? I don't know - maybe ?

    When you look at the timing case there are seven studs. Three on the "front" facing you, and two on "either side". (there are actually three on either side, but the third doesn't go into the cover). The stud in question is the one on the right hand side furthest away from the corner. This is actually better than being one of the ones on the front / corner, as the exhaust blocks you from getting a socket in from below. Where as the stud in question is far enough in, and you can get directly under it.

    The stud in question also still has enough thread that I could replace the nut and move on. i.e. the threads that are stripped are lower thread where the second nut in the double nut sits. If I could get the stupid seal out, then I could just replace the nut, which will tightnen up fine, and move on with life.

    The JWise thread also has a bunch of discussion re removing studs. I haven't tried heating it, or anything like that. Basically the stud stripped, and I walked away.

    OK - here is a stupid questions for you guys. In reading the JWise thread today, I came across this statement.

    "Much care must be used when installing the timing case/gears. The marks on the case must be aligned with the painted marks on the pullies (see photo) so when it's bolted down, all is aligned. Make sure you make many paint marks on the gears and case, and then photograph them for reference."

    There is also talk about how the gears can move when you tighten everything up etc.

    So - this may be a rookie question - but who cares ? The timing issue is that when Piston 1 is TDC the cams are on the mark. Right ? Why does it matter that the cam drive pullies go in in the same way that the came out. From what I can gather, the Timing case drives the cam drive pullies and the oil pump. I can't see (may be wrong) that the oil pump would have anything to-do with timing. and the Cam drive pullies just drive the belts which drive the cams.

    For example, currently, the "hole" where the woodruff key goes on the front and rear drive shaft are both aligned. when the rear drive shaft woodruff key is at 12 o'clock so is the front drive shaft woodruff key. But if they weren't - would it matter ?

    I'm sure there is a good answer to this, and I will be embarrassed at having asked the question once I find out the answer, but currently I missing something.

    Jas

    PS - John - nice job on the suspension rebuild.
     
  17. Harry

    Harry Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    93
    Germany
    Take a medium screwdriver and gently hammer the o/d of the seal away from its seat in the timing cover. Once the outer ring of the seal has lost contact to the aluminium at one spot, you can easily pull the seal out. Take care to hold the screwdriver in an angle in order not to touch/damage the seat with it.
     
  18. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,017
    Groton, MA
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    Verell Boaen
    Harry's right on. Use a pair of vicegrips, or heavy pliars to grab a piece of the seal once you've broken the outer ring.

    At most you'll need to cut thru the metal rim in one place to breake it loose, not chop it up. There aren't going to be a lot of little pieces to cause trouble.

    Depending on which stud you're fighting with there may not be clearance to get any of the pullers onto the stud.

    As to the stud removers, the 'cam style'one in your middle thread is the least likely to be successful unless it's truly hardened steel, the inexpensive ones tend to be diecast pot metal with a steel cam wheel. They do OK on big (10-12mm long head studs, but I think you'll find those studs are too short for it to get a good grip on. The 'stinger' set is generally quite good at getting studs out w/o damaging the threads.

    You're right, technically restoring the cam drive gear alignment isn't absolutely necessary. However, assuming your cams were properly timed when you started, or at lease were pretty close, you can save yourself several hours worth of work re-timing the cams if you restore the cam drive gear alignment you started out with.
     
  19. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    #69 jford10014, Mar 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi,

    A positive update for a change.

    After much fighting with the oil seal it finally came out. Summing it up like that in one sentence doesn't really do justice the amount of hassle spent on trying to get it out. A combination of drilling holes, inserting screws and prying the edge away from the housing finally the thing came out.

    Picture attached below.

    More good news, I got a nut back on the stripped stud and tightened it up. As discussed above, it was the bottom half of the stud which stripped (i.e. where the second nut in the double nut combo goes). So that’s back in. Slowly worked the other studs that I took out back in (gave them a coat of never-seal) and put all the nuts back on.

    Ok - good.

    Things then began to move very quickly.

    Got the new oil seal in.

    Got the cam drive pullies back on, with new nuts.

    Reset engine to PM1-4

    Put new cam seals and o-rings on all 4 cams.

    Put cams back in with marks lined up. Careful not to pinch the o-ring on the block.

    Replaced the tensioner brgs on the assembly. applied new grease to the spring.

    put new belts and tensioner assembly back on engine.

    Put damper back on.

    Rotated and released tensioner.

    At that point I called it a day. Major progress.

    I predict 1- 2 day’s worth of work to get her back together. Unfortunately i'll be away for a couple of weeks, but back in early april and should have her on the road the next weekend I get.

    Jason
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    Hi,

    Engine went back together this w/k. No major issues. Moment of truth - fired her up, was fine.

    One minor problem however. When I start the engine the wheels are going round. The reason for this is that I changed the shift shaft seal and clearly failed to adjust the shaft / linkage when i reassembled.

    So - drained (nice new) oil from gearbox. Next week I'll get under there again and see what's going on.

    QUESTION : do you think it would be "safe" to switch on the engine for very short periods of time (< 5 seconds) with the gear sump removed and no oil in the gear box ?

    The reason I ask is that when I manually turn the engine my hand, the wheels don't move. However when the engine is turning itself they do. I can only assume that when turning by hand the wheels are turning such a small amount that I don't notice. I was thinking of adjusting the gear level and then firing her up for a few seconds to see if that worked.

    Unless there is some other trick to adjusting the shift shaft that I don't know about ?

    Thks in advance.

    JAson
     
  21. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Good job on getting the engine running!

    On the wheels turning as the car is at idle and shifter in neutral:

    It could just be a little clutch/throw-out bearing drag. Mine does the same thing when the car is cold and in the air. Did you try to grab a tire while it was turning-grab carefully! If you did, and it feels like it's in gear (not clutch drag)- than you are correct: bad shifter alignment. Can you shift through the gears while running and on the stands/lift? If the alignment is so bad that the gear lever is in the middle of the gate, but the trans is still in gear, I don't think you would be able to shift it at all.

    There should be no reason to run the car without the sump pan attached. I wouldn't do it.
     
  22. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    Hey - thks for the post.

    The wheels turn when the car is idle and the shifter in neutral. The wheels are turning slowly when compared to, say first gear. They are still going round quite fast, but not as fast as first at idle, if that makes sense.

    If I put my foot on the brake disk, then it stops, but I take my foot off and it starts again. I can however happily shift into all the gears in the car, so it's not like the thing is massively off.

    On sunday before I left, I drained the oil from the gear box, and removed the sump cover. I didn't really inspect what was going on because there was still oil dripping down. I'll take a look next time.

    The reason I ask about running the engine with the pan off, is that I'm pretty sure (??) that I adjusted it correctly the first time. Clearly that isn't the case, but i thought everthing lined up. Also, when I adjusted it, I turned the engine by hand in every gear as well as neutral to ensure each gear was engaged and neutral was not. When I turn the engine by hand the wheels didn't move. I suspect they did, but they were moving by such a small amount I didn't really notice.

    I don't want to adjust it again, put the pan back on, fill with oil, and then find it's not correct. The would get very expensive in gaskets and oil.

    Thoughts ?

    Jas
     
  23. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    It could just be a clutch adjustment. I'd drive the car, completely warm it up, and then put it on stands and see if it still rotates in neutral.

    Like I said- mine does the same thing unless the car is warm. Even cold- it's easy to stop the rotation with my hands on the tire.

    this is a good post- maybe you already read it. See Ferrarifixers posts in particular.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24678&highlight=adjust
     
  24. jford10014

    jford10014 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2004
    2,735
    New York, NY
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    Jason
    Ok - last update (for this thread).

    Car back on the road - took out for a test drive yesterday - all good.

    I drained the oil from the gearbox, took off the sump cover, took off the shift shaft selector (which looked perfectly ok btw, just felt i had to do something with it all apart)

    Put it all back together, filled with oil, and was fine.

    But the deck lid back on, wheels back on and took her out for a spin.

    Nice ! Welcome to spring

    THANKS FOR EVERYBODY WHO HELPED ON THIS THREAD - Hopefully it will be useful to somebody in the future.

    Jason

    PS – I saw a silver Dino driving around the Catskills yesterday – anyone on this board ?
     
  25. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Jason, congratulations on getting the car back on the road.

    Roll on summer.......


    Richard
     

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