308 racing motor

Theiler was indeed a very well known and respected Ferrari engine guy who died a few years ago. The value of the engine is impossible to determine without a full documentation of the specific modifications.

 

I wouldnt really care so much what it was, so much as what was inside it and what its condition is. If its been sitting around 20 years, its just an old garage queen. Could have rusted internally. That last one isnt a joke, its highley possible. For example, because of camsahft rust on non used engines, Lycoming reduces engine TBO 5 hours per month. But after a certain period it suddenly drops to zero. Your just starting to deal with to many unknowns. Just because they ran it, or it runs really doenst tell you much.

And really, besides cams and pistons, about the only other thing you can really do is porting. Oh I guess you could put in some aftermarket rods like Carillos. Certainly not worth any $18K for all that. If the engine were disassembled so you can see its actual condition and what parts make it up, it would be a lot less of a pig in a poke.

 

I emailed the seller who politely responded he wold look and reply with the documented internal changes, as well as a possible engine dyno.

 

Does that oil filter have a date of 10/03?

jIM

 

That's what it says.

I think this engine may have some historical interest for the right guy, perhaps one with an existing two valve Theiler car, but intrinsically is may not be worth $18K to the entire racing market when it can be duplicated specification wise for less. I think just based on age you are looking at a rebuild of the current parts to be safe and protect the investment.

 

Hello,
I just purchased this motor and will get to see it when I get home 1st week of Sept. Will let you know condition & engine specs. Spoke to seller who was very knowledgeable from his racing experience with Ferraris and offered assistance from his shop technician with engine installation/running if I needed help. The seller owns a business that does ground up restoration or complete fabrication of parts for a complete build of certain model Ferrari’s. The engine is one of aprox 4 that was built by the original builder, Aprox cost at that time $54,000. Engine was prepped for long term storage, spent most of its life in climate controlled environment.
The engine was well documented by the original builder as to mods of engine internals, heads are of the 2 valve design, but significantly modified, builder had his own head design at that time and did work for Ferrari.
I am working on converting a 1977 GTB that I purchased basically gutted, no eng, trans, has most of interior and components into an all carbon fiber body 288 GTO.
Will sell the original steel body parts. Unfortunately, this model 308 came just after Ferrari stopped producing fiberglass. I will need most of the glass around the car, suspension items, some interior gauges; window/assbly handles for door. If anyone out there knows of a good new/used parts supplier for these types of items please let me know. Thanks!

 

$54k engine rebuild on that racing engine is decent. It cost us $50k for a Schnitzer E30 M3 Rebuild and $80k for a Mercedes 190E EVO2 motor rebuilt by AMG. When we were racing for Ralliart it cost $30k for a Group A Starion rebuild and we were only leasing those engines. A Group A qualifying motor was $55k also leased.

 

That's a great project. I would be interested in seeing more of this as you go.

 

Thanks to all for the responses. It will be a little while yet till I get started, but when I do I will try to list initial photo of the car, and follow on pix's and commentary. I am hoping for a fairly light car when I am done and it will be interesting to see how the 400HP engine moves the 308/288 along. For me, it was the cheapest way to go without getting into the turbo, for now anyway! Alhough I intend to keep the engine in it's stock 308 location/configuration I am researching to see if the engine sits aprox. 1" lower if handeling could be improved enough to be worth the modification.

If anyone has any info/experience with the GTO 308/288 conversion I would like to here from you. I am planning on purchasing the body kit from Berlinetta Motors, NY due to proximity of where I live. Don't have alot of Ferrari experience so any tip or suggestions would be appreciated. I hope to have the car built by end of next year since I have many projects going on at the moment, one being the military. Thanks everyone!

 

It sounds like a great project!

The engine/trans already sits even with the bottom of the car, lowering them would put the sumps at pretty high risk. Your best bet is to lower the whole car 1 - 1 1/2 inches. My car sits about 1" lower than stock and I have a GTO fron valance and it has bbe too much trouble keeping it from hitting stuff....although I end up respraying it every couple years.

If you really want to drop the engine, your best bet is to rotate it GTO style and dry sump it, that would let you drop it a couple inches with no worries....except of course the added work and expense.

 

MK e,
Thanks for the tip, not a bad idea since the car will be going thru extensive work anyway. May look into going dry sump and repositioning the motor mounts, I need to look into shifting linkage assbly. useing existing trans. I noted your from PA, so am I.

 

If you fill out your profile, no one has to guess...

 

If you're not too far (PA is big), maybe I'll stop by and have a look at what you're plotting...I mean planning

BTW, I have a pretty decent machine shop in my basement, so if you need to make stuff let me know.

Mark

 

I have a contact for you. He has a few 288 conversions. Plus tons of 308 parts. Send me a pm if interested.

 

I believe the 288 GTO has a longer wheelbase. If you rotate the engine like a GTO the wheelbase will need to be increased.

 

That sounds right.

 

forum member "jagbuff" has or had a GTO rep with longitudinal engine and Porsche gearbox and still standard wheelbase, probably because all the body kits are made for standard wheelbase.
It is relatively easy to get the correct GTO wheelbase in a 308 with transverse engine, just swap the rear A-arms left to right! There are 25mm (1 inch) spacers in the rear motor mounts, if you move these to the front motor mounts the engine goes to the rear 25 mm and the driveshafts will have the same angle, originally they point a bit forwards, after they point backwards. Then something will have to be done for the swaybar and the shock/spring mount has to move back also. I have thought about doing this but in my country (Netherlands) the wheelbase has to stay original otherwise the car loses it's type approval unless the original manufacturer approves of the change in wheelbase, like they do for some commercial cab-frame-only vehicles but not Ferrari.
I also think the Berlinetta GTO kits are not very accurate. "Nickm" in Ferrariads has a better kit on offer.

 

Thank you for the information, it sounds like you have done your home work. I have not looked at the actual 288 kits out on the market yet, so I appreciate the tip. I will look into it before purchasing the 288 GTO kit form anyone. Thanks!

 

Hello Davet,
Thanks! I can certainly use a good contact for parts. My direct e-mail is [email protected], I would appreciate contact information.

 

Hello Mark,
I'm sure I will probably need to have some parts made since the car is fairly striped. Your about 2hrs or so from me, I'm located 2hrs North of Phily. Problem is, I am a reservist on active duty and it looks like I'll be in Heidelberg Germany for another year. Just got back Dec from Iraq so Heidelberg is not a bad place to be. However, it will be awhile till I actually get started on the car. I would be more then happy to look you up on my return and even show you the project car. You can send contact info to my direct e-mail at [email protected].

 

Thanks, Didn't even know about the profile. Havn't had much time to check out this webpage since becoming a member. It was by chance I ran across it during the engine purchase trying to find some info. Glad I found it though! Great Ferrari community out there!

 

Here's Norwood's Can Am Chevy powered GTB that I found in my old Ferrari Magazine pile.
This is a stripped 308 with added on GTO body panels lengthen 4 inches.
Jim
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Hey, Thanks! Great info.

***ANY HELP WITH (QUESTIONS) BELOW FROM THE 308 EXPERTS WOULD BE MOST APPRECIATED***

With everyone’s suggestions it really has helped the thought process on what to do with the project car. I'm leaning more due to cost not to look into a perfect conversion of the 288, but possibly a nice modified 308 using all carbon fiber panels to lighten the car. I'm trying to maintain resale value of the car the best I can, yet build the performance car that I would like to ‘satisfy the itch’. The custom race engine I just purchased is paired to a nice transverse transmission as a combined performance package. The more I wrestled with the idea; I descided it would be a shame to break-up the race package. What I decided on doing with the project follows; what I need some help with! if anyone has information from personal projects or experience. Under (Question), is what I could use some help with.

***ANY HELP WITH (QUESTIONS) BELOW FROM THE 308 EXPERTS WOULD BE MOST APPRECIATED***

1. PLAN: Will keep engine in original transverse configuration.
a. QUESTION: To lower CG, any chance of modifying motor mount position lower within frame so engine sits lower? Would going dry sump help with road clearance in this situation?

2. PLAN: Will replace entire 308 original suspension system.
b. QUESTION: Any suspension system out there suitable for road/track with (elect height adjustment) for road clearance when required? What is best brand suspension system for 308 GTB road/race application?

3. PLAN: Will replace stock 308 brake system.
c. QUESTION: Best name brand brake system using larger rotors & calipers that will fit? Purchasing new wheels-so all can be matched.

4. PLAN: Will replace stock wheels and tires.
d. QUESTION: 308 GTB will have flared 288 style Front & Rear fender well. What is a good name brand wheel- newer see thru design? Widest suitable tire size & design for handling that should be used?

5. PLAN: Relocate fuel tanks to forward compartment, spare tire location.
e. QUESTION: Any advantage?.... with car balance & handling by reducing fuel weight from original location to just forward of front windshield, around spare tire area.

6. PLAN: Replace all steel panels with carbon fiber to reduce weight.
f. QUESTION: A reputable manufacture selling good quality/fitting carbon fiber panels or kit?

The questions above are the big modifications I need help with by someone that’s “been there done that”.
I hope to post some photos of my project car as it now sits by end of this month: 1977, 308-GTB. When I start building I will post photo series and comments as the work progresses.

My sincere thanks to everyone for your assistance!
JC

 

Jim,
Forgot to ask, do you have any performance data on the car? Engine data, trans,car wt, suspension, overall speed. Looks like a great article for information. Thanks!
JC