308 GTB BAT value

I was just looking at this car. My primary concern is if the block and heads are still serviceable. If not, then a non original engine will have to be sourced and one would be backwards very quickly ($$$$$). If it’s a spun rod bearing then it is a candidate for a stroker motor which uses a 360 crank and rods and custom pistons, makes for a great motor with 310-320hp, but like any engine build, it is a huge amount of work, and compound that with you just entering the very steep Ferrari learning curve makes it even more of a challenge. Thankfully everyone (well, most everyone) likes a challenge.

That said, if the block and heads are ok (big if) it may be a candidate for 360 crank and rods which can be had for around $4-$5k these days, or if you can find a stock crank and stock rods it’s a bit less but not a lot, custom pistons another $2k ish. Appropriate camshafts for the stroker motor another $2k (78-79 308s had the worst cams of the series). New exhaust (this car definitely needs it) $2k+. All the other stuff, gaskets, engine bearings, shaft seals all add up too. There is a lot to look at and do.

If the car can be had under $35k or so then it might be an ok project if the qualified owner is doing the work themself, which it sounds like you are, being an engineer. Lots of help on fchat from great experts who have done this sort of repair before. BaT often has bidders who eyes and bids are far higher than what is realistic with a project such as this, and buyers get backwards incredibly quick with them. A great example is the US spec 87 4v Countach project that just sold for nearly $400k or so. That owner will be backwards in that car by the time it’s taken apart. If I had to guess I’d say this car will likely go somewhere in the $40k range, and to me that is far and away too much given the enormity of the project and how quickly one will be upside down.

In the end these are just engines, but they do have quirks that absolutely must be paid attention to.

 

These cars are fun without tire spinning hp.

 

BaT is full of dealers and bad information these days. Rest assured more than one pro has passed on this car due to knowing what is wrong with it. It is on BaT because that is the best place to off load it with the possibility someone isn't going to do a PPI. I like your enthusiasm for a 308 build. My 255 hp stock GTB has been more than fine for over 35 years. Do your research though. These are refined and well engineered pieces. Expanding the envelope in one area exposes you to weakness in others. If you want a long term development effort then modding a 308 is a great project. But to get more out of them will cost sonic dollars as you can see from the previous (not an exaggerated) assessment. That will only get you an engine.

 

As for which car, it's a personal preference. I prefer early 2v carb cars. A 4v project car would be a more pricey rebuild due to the heads and liners. That said, these are 40+ year old cars that always have things that could be done, how far one goes is entirely up to the person.

The steep learning curve is more just in the differences compared to anything domestic. Setting up cams, making sure the oil pump settings are correct, honing the block with torque plates (findings torque plates), finding a machine shop that knows something about these followed by the very long wait for machine work to be done, sealing the heads to the block and checking to make sure it is indeed sealed before the engine is back in the car, rejetting carburetors if any major internal changes such as compression and cams have been altered etc. It's just all very different and can be time consuming.

As for where to find a 308 project, they are rare now and you just found one on BaT which is probably the best place to find them now, but as I stated, people tend to bid wild amounts that surely have them upside down in a hurry. @tuttebenne is spot on in his assessment in that someone out there probably knows exactly what this car needs and many have passed on it. Maybe facebook marketplace search or something might be worth a look.

IMO, find a good runner and go from there. These project cars, especially this one and all of its unknowns, can be total black holes of death and frustration and never ending expense and searching for parts.

 

Totally agree. The gap between the acquisition cost of a project 308 and one that runs, drives, and can provide lots of enjoyment while you figure out what you want to do, is tiny. This car will hit $35,000 before the bidding stops yet just three weeks ago, one could have been had for $60,000 in much nicer shape and with no issues. Does one really think they will put a project 308 right - one with a major engine issue - for $25,000? If so, I have a nice vintage bridge to sell you in NYC.

I'm sure there are those who say "oh but I don't have the money now so buying in cheap and doing the work as I accumulate the money is the only way I can get into this level of the hobby." Well I have been to a lot of rodeos and I have NEVER seen this approach pan out for someone. Better off taking a loan and buying the right car than thinking you can restore one on the cheap.

 

I’m going to share a bit different perspective.

Yes, the most expensive Ferrari you can buy is a cheap Ferrari, no argument about that. If you are trying to get it back to original condition then every little thing is going to add up fast as parts are just stupid expensive.

Yes the advice of “if you want a faster Ferrari, buy one” is correct because adding hp to a Ferrari is expensive so you’re probably better off just buying a faster model or one that has already been modified as it will likely be less expensive than a similar condition all original car.

…so I did none of that. I bought a very sad QV GTS. I almost certainly over paid for it even for what it was much less what it would ultimately cost to sort out. I’m not sure I would make a different choice today with all I’ve learned than I did 23 years ago because I enjoy working on the car and I love that when I modify something on it I’m not destroying a nice original or even a car that would have made sense to restore.

Articles on modifying stuff are basically non existent. A forum search is your best bet.

7-8k rpm is very high for a big long(ish) stroke US V8 but is nothing for a short stroke 308 V8 so nothing special to worry about there, even with the “big” 360 crank you are only at 79mm (3.11”) stroke so it just wants to spin. What you will notice getting out of your vette and into a 308 is the total lack of torque. For torque there is no replacement for displacement and 187ci is not 327ci nor is the torque so you need to take advantage of the short stroke and spin it to make up for that I had ’65 coupe vette before the 308, its just a very different driving experience.

As far as hp goes, a lot of guys are happy with it as-is but I can’t for the life of me wrap my head around that though. Of course it needs more hp! I drove mine for a few months stock so making maybe 190ish rwhp. Then I added an eaton roots type MP90 blower at 8-10psi making 300rwhp…..WAY better. A couple years late I removed that and installed a lysholm 2300 at 22-24psi making 420(?) rwhp and it was for sure better again and stupid fast but it seemed to have lost a little of the 308 magic, it now had buckets of low end torque (it made 12psi at idle) and just felt a lot more like the vette honestly. It still wanted to spin to7000k+ but there was not longer any need in normal driving which made me sad. I’ve never driven a turbo 308 but there are a few on the forum so maybe a search. They will have torque, just at higher rpm so maybe still a biit of the 308 feel

Now after many years of work its got a naturally aspirated 5.4L V12 the making maybe 650rwhp so stupider than stupid fast but its back to that free reving feeling it once had. This was, in hide sight, perhaps a bit of an extreme measure. You can bump the V8 to as high as 3.9 and naturally aspirated 300-400rwhp. The QVs are easier to make good hp with, a 2V something around 300 would be the higher end I think. Again a search will find examples of modest to major builds.

I think my GTS handles just fine after suspension upgrades, but there was just a threat where a couple guys who have both GTS and GTB have been quite insistent that there is just no comparison and the GTB is hands down better. Something to keep in mind if performance is the goal perhaps.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Sorta.

For those that want a good driver and don't give a **** about a missing tool kit or water bottle and could care less about repainting it, a solid "cheap" 308 can be a fantastic deal.

 

That

That’s fair as long as the plans is to leave it rough.

I was reading the OP as looking to add hp, so a decent looking car with a failed engine seems fine. Maybe grab a 348 engine or maybe swap in a 355 eng/trans and be right at the 400hp target, assuming the stock engine is toast and not worth touching.

Or the trans is good so maybe a V12? Come on in, the water's fine!

 

Looks too late on this GTS, it says pending but a price point I guess

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/348469657763265/

 

I see discussions all the time during a sale about costs and the general consensus is the only acceptable path is concourse level as if that is obligatory with the purchase - and it drives me crazy.

I have a friend here in town that bought an 81 GTB. The usual crowd on BAT or even here would have ripped it to shreds. He drives the **** out of it AS IS and couldn't be happier. Put belts on it and that's about it. Seven years of enjoyment with NO TOOL KIT. How is that even possible???

 

Inconceivable!

 

Some maybe important context. Not only are there no articles to read there are is also little to nothing in the aftermarket world. You can order connecting rods and there now is a place with new cams so weld/regrind isn't the only path but that's about it. Everything else is custom.

The superchargers I installed required I make the intake manifold and all the other bits, only the blower itself was an off the shelf item. I made 3 QV setups that are out in the world somewhere. A couple others also made a handful of systems.....so there maybe 15 or 20?

Turbos, I've seen cars with kits from the 80s or 90s so maybe 15-20 of those? Then another 20-30 cars with custom setups maybe?

Just be mentally prepared, it's a very different experienced than vetted land where most anything you might want is available to buy.

 

So true Tommy. The concours guys would never take their car to a track event. Heaven forbid their investment got a stone chip. They are usually content hanging around in parking lots talking about how much their car will be worth in the future and avoiding driving it because - miles will hurt the value.

As for the "usual crowd" at BaT, when they aren't fawning over something or showing how little they know, I think more than just a few are playing video games in their mother's basement.

 

You mean how it is supposed to be done?

 

Yeah man. That is exactly how it should be. In the end it's your car and you do whatever the heck you want with it for as long as you wish, or are physically able. Resale nonsense be damned. Jim G had the right idea with that too.

 

So, I am reviving an engine from a 1977 308GTB in red, looks just like the one in the first post. It was running, with new carbs, but everything on it was old and bad. Oil is leaking from everywhere including the head gaskets. So it was decided to pull the engine and replace the head gaskets. The earth tilted, and now we are doing a valve job, replacing every seal on the engine, engine mounts, welding the leaky headers, changing the clutch pack, all fuel hoses, coolant hoses, water pump, oil hoses, coolant tank and whatever else is old and needs replacement. The short block stays the same. It will be +$15K before we are done, and that is just the engine. The carcus is getting a body kit and a total paint job probably in the $30K range.

If you can buy that car for $30K with an unknown engine, you will ... break even. Beyond that, it will have to be love of Ferrari.

 

Did you win the auction?

 

I have a feeling whoever won the auction is just going to sit on it like a commodity. Hope that’s not the case but it makes zero economic sense to fix it now with it going for $40k. Sit on it for 10 years and flip it like real estate

 

You never know. Most people don't realize how expensive it is to repair a ferrari until its too late or they could be planning an LS swap or some other foolishness. I didn't look real close at the pics but if its otherwise very nice and they can do the work themselves (so labor bill) and the block is ok then its a fine project. Probably not a profit maker but if they enjoy the shop time as I do and its not losing (big) buckets of money its a fine purchase.

 

That carb GTB could make $25,000 for the new owner if it is fixed and sorted by the Spring.

 

welcome...

The 1978s were the start of heavy smog equipment and cat convertors.
That's hard (and illegal) to 'turn back"..but cam reprofile and modern cats would get you close to the original 240HP.
that's "enough" to have real fun and the car is very well balanced to drive.

GTBS are more robust than GTS but being tube frame it's not a huge thing
I have only had GTBs...

that was strong result given the unknowns, but it was "all there" in any event.
mk e is telling it true

i drive a NON CAT 1977 and have had 1976 examples.
Ferrari put a TON of effort into the 308 engine at the time, as the GT4 was replacing the 246.

they did not leave much HP on the table IMO