275 needs Total Restoration, good price at $200k?

What you are descirbing is a planishing hammer

This is from Wikipedia

English wheel

The machine is shaped like a large, closed letter "C". At the ends of the C, there are two wheels. The wheel on the top is called the rolling wheel, while the wheel on the bottom is called the anvil wheel. (Some references refer to the wheels by their position: upper wheel and lower wheel.) The anvil wheel usually has a smaller radius than the rolling wheel. Although larger machines exist, the rolling wheel is usually 8 cm (3 inches) wide or less, and usually 25 cm (9 inches) in diameter, or less.

The rolling (top) wheel is flat in cross section, while the anvil (bottom) wheel is domed.

The depth of the C-shaped frame is called the throat. The largest machines have throat sizes of 120 cm (48 inches), while smaller machines have throat sizes of about 60 cm (24 inches). The C stands vertically and is supported by a frame. The throat size usually determines the largest size of metal sheet that the operator can place in the machine and work easily. On some machines, the operator can turn the top wheel and anvil 90 degrees to the frame to increase the maximum size of the work piece. Because the machine works by an amount of pressure between the wheels through the material, and because that pressure changes as the material becomes thinner, the lower jaw and cradle of the frame that holds the anvil roller is adjustable. It may move with a hydraulic jack on machines designed for steel plate, or a jackscrew on machines designed for sheet metals. As the material thins, the operator must adjust the pressure to compensate.

A properly equipped machine has an assortment of anvil wheels. Anvil wheels, like dollies used with hammers in panel beating (which are also known as anvils) should be used to match the desired crown or curvature of the work piece


You shape the metal on the wheel and then remove small dents with the planishing hammer. You could also form pannels on the planishing hammer but it is easyer on the English wheel.

Most of the older alloy bodied cars were made with a hammer and leather bag to form the parts. Once skilled at it you can do it fairly quickly. The Italians like to use lots of bondo on the alloy to cover the hammer marks. Zagato cars are famous for it. Just talk to any Abarth Zagato owner.

 

Absolutely. Your car is fantastic but it is and has been properly maintained. That it's well used and has a rock chip or two makes it more valuable to someone like me. If it had been put away wet in cold, moldy barn for many years IMO it would be another matter and repairing/restoring it correctly NOT over restoring it would be the way to go.

You spent your money very wisely!

Cheers!

 

Exact same result is NOT acheived with an English wheel, it is better, and thus not right. I was against the English wheel being used recently on that 62' GTO restoration and I'm still against it.

So it takes a long time ... so what. It takes a long time to restore/preserve an important old painting.

Improving the car everytime it is restored means we loose what it really once was. And I don't use an English wheel restoring my Alfa Romeo GTV ... I've made repair panels with only a hammer and a dolly. And yes I know that these cars were made out of stamped/pressed panels ... but I cannot afford that press and I also don't own an English wheel so like any New Zealander I make do and work it out and achieve the same results with a little extra effort. Will my car be better than Alfa Romeo made it?, I damn hope so, because I can weld and also I will paint it properly. Will it be perfect? ... no, because I am not tidying up everything, etc. ... on purpose.

Restoring cars is not meant to be an easy quick job but a rewarding person experience.
Pete
ps: Jim, thanks for asking. Yes we are slowly getting there with this project. I have finished the de-rusting of the front and recently managed to purchase a new old stock indicator to replace the one that was missing. Thus I'm about to do a complete trial assembly of the front and then I'll be doing a bit of leading (probably followed by another trial fit) ... and then on to the next area. Yes we are getting closer to applying paint , but I'm a one man band ...

 

Cheers to you too !! You'll note I have preserved the original vinyl quilted rear parcel shelf, amazing the number of people who look, sniff, and say "uhh plastic". But how often do you see a Lusso today that hasn't been redone in wall to wall leather? I like my cars to feel like 5 years old and used.

One of these days I'll get the car repainted and the door shuts better, until then I try my best just to enjoy it.

 

I find it ironic that as our discussion is occurring here on F-chat, Tom Yang ( http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari776.htm )
has some excellent input on his site at the same time concerning the same subject.
Concerning http://www.eurocoachworks.com/en/ :

“Orlando explained how the Italian techniques differed from the English method of metal craft. The English method forms metal largely on the English wheel stretching the metal with the force of the wheel with hammering and plannishing for finishing work, while the Italian method largely employs the use of hammers throughout the process. English made panels tend to have a smoother finish top and bottom, while Italian panels may have light hammer marks on the back of their panels, but a high level of smoothness can still be attained topside with lighter hammer blows and some body files. No technique is better than the other, and most shops use a combination of techniques to fabricate, much like EuroCoachworks.”

 

Arlie, the main problem I see here is that the tree stump in EuroCoachworks shop is NOT FROM AN ITALIAN TREE.
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LOL!

 

I think Orlando said it was a Cypress stump because he had read that they used to import their stumps from a Central Florida swamp clearing operation in the early days of the Italian coachwork companies...

 

Wouldn't this be part of the reason it costs big bucks to restore these cars?!

 

Yes, if paying more for an inferior restoration is your thing.

 

Man you really just don't get it do you .

The goal of a restoration is to return "anything' to it's former glory NOT to redesign and improve on the way ... if one really does consider using an English wheel to be an improvement, I don't. I look at the body work of Jim's #0854 and it is absolutely perfectly made and made using nothing but hammers, dollies and welding gear. Very little filler will be required.

Lets for example restore Big Ben (I think that is what it is called in London), but heck bricks are old fashioned silly things, lets make the new one out of titanium, miles superior. Would you do that? ... I wouldn't, and thus restoring an important and rare old Ferrari using an English wheel is simply wrong, whether it is better or not.

Like I said if I ever was rich enough to own my dream car, a 250LM and somebody suggested they use an English wheel for body repairs the car would be removed from that shop as quick as possible and a more suitable craftsman found.
Pete
ps: Maybe you are English and thus having superiority complex issues ... get over it , an English wheel is just another tool.

 

Not as Judged by the guys who hand out the Trophies at Pebble and Villa d'Este and offer me twice to five times what I have in my cars which aren't for sale.

Still waiting for the list of Trophy's cars restored by you have won or if Concours aren't your thing how about the list of cars you've restored that have been in the Mille Migila, Targa Florio, or The 24 Hours of Le Mans both the original race and the Historic version.

 

Are you saying YOU restored the cars or you simply wrote the cheques? Trying to make someone feel inferior to you because of the number of trophys you bought buy spending loads of money doenst make you look as great as you might think. I think quite often with these cars (and the people) its a case of more money than brains. This thread is a waste of space, use and english wheel then dent the thing with a bat to make it look correct, voila, same end result at a fraction of the cost.

 

Of course he wrote the cheques. I'm relatively new to this, but doesn't a great restoration involve a lot of judgments on the part of both the owner and restorer? See Jim's post about entrusting his car to Pininfarina, and the nature of the work performed. I gave up on this thread a while ago, because I don't even think Jim and some of the other folks here are talking about the same process.

 

We should ALL remember this quote (refer Horsefly's earlier post) from a guy that actually makes Ferrari and other bodies:

So can we please drop this English wheel is the best thing since the "wheel" was invented crappola.
Pete

 

I agree its a moot arguement about the process and it comes down to personal preference in my opinion not to mention the ability of the craftsman doing the work.

 

You missed the point. For example using the hotrod builders and their views, some clubs wont allow a member to join with his or her custom rod if they simply cut a cheque for it. You actually have to build the rod with your own hands to be accepted, having the means isnt always enough. Being able to dole out unlimited funds to make a race car from an original wheel nut and hose clamp doesnt earn the respect of everyone around you.

 

With all due respect Mr. G, but these places also praise and hand out ribbons to cars that are more often then not way over restored, and not how they originally left the factory. These shows have become a show of what an over restored car is IMHO, and that is a subject of another thread. But, my point simply is if the English wheel can get a better result, and Pebble praises perfection, why spend the money for the hammer?
Erik

 

+2.

 

From what I can tell, he's got his own shop w/employees. He researches his automobiles extensively and is smart enough to let his guys do what they do best. He also expects some degree of imperfection (ok.. maybe the Duesey is the exception) to maintain the history behind the automobile. I think it's far from a situation where he shows up 14 months later and drives it onto the lawn at Pebble. He may have, but not with the cars he shares with this forum.

True. But I think this is about keeping that original dent, not fixing it and then working backwards.. I think even I'm confused at this point.

 

Actually they don't. Villa d'Este is judged totally differently than Pebble and has been for years and Pebble is changing as well. There is a lot of fashion that gets into it and fashion changes but authenticity is becoming more important every year and there are deductions in many classes for over restoration. There's also no question that the market is paying an increasing premium for authenticity and restoration done to an original standard. To properly restore a car to an original standard requires very talented people, massive research and money but in my case as I said earlier by setting up my own shop and actively supervising I actually pay less than most on average. I say I because I am actively involved in the process, have a lot of input, final cut and shape the final result. Research is a very important part of it and is really what enables a car to be restored to the way it was. If someone hadn't done the proper research many would still think that J6 rather than J5 was the only car made in America to have won Le Mans. The person the definitive books on the History of the Ford GT credit with having discovered the truth of that and restored J6 properly righting a 23 year massive mis-restoration, improper numbering and painting of the wrong color is thanked by the authors of several definitive Ford GT books for righting that wrong. Proper research is an important part of it. If you watch the Judging at Pebble you'll notice that the Judges spend a lot of time looking at and discussing documentation, photographs, etc., that either proves or disproves originality.

In the end everyone makes themselves happy which is a good thing but with major cars the financial penalty for destroying originality can be measured in the Millions of Dollars. In the case of J5/J6 the Le Mans winner vs the Fourth Place car is easily 5 Million dollars. In this particular case the truth I exposed caused many to ask why I did it. I owned a car that The Ford Motor Co. said was the Le Mans winner when they gave it to their "Man of The Year" AJ Foyt. The records at Le Mans showed it as the winner by it's original chassis plate which unlike the other car it still had. It was painted as the winner and had been for 23 years. All of the Books listed it as the winner but as my research proved it wasn't. Money comes and goes but Truth Endures. Restoring J6 properly was very enjoyable and I've enjoyed the 40,000 miles I've put on her but the thanks I received from the Curator of The Henry Ford Museum for researching, proving beyond the shadow of any doubt, causing the books to be corrected and properly restoring J6 to how she really was on that weekend in June when Ford beat Ferrari is something I'd rather have than the 5 Million I threw into the wind.

 

My point was that if you can do it the right and original/same way then you should aim to do that ... if you can't well do the best you can with whatever.

We are not talking about cheap cars here, like my 1750 GTV Alfa Romeo, we are talking about cars that even if comprehensively written off would still be worth millions. Surely the extra effort is worth it, otherwise heck, we all know the 250GTO has a humble (but well located) live-axle driving the rear wheels ... heck we can do better than that, so lets make another improvement and put in double wishbone independent rear suspension incorporating a lower roll centre. After all the wheels will still be in the same place and it won't affect the look of the car ...

So where is the cutoff line?. Yes the way a body is handbuilt is a subtle point, but once you compromise here where else are you going to go "heck thats too hard ... I'll do it X way".

Take modern paints for example, miles better than the old stuff ... surely you wouldn't use the modern stuff on an old car? Now to many that is a subtle as how the body work feels on the inside, etc.
Pete

 

IMO, only some rich 20 pounds of gold chain wearing elitist snob would favor perfection over making a car as close as humanly possible to the day it left the factory...

 

Leave Ralph Lauren out of this!