275 needs Total Restoration, good price at $200k?

We can take this debate in the opposite direction just as easily. A few years ago, my family had to have the seats recovered on a Chevy Suburban. By the current line of logic from the Ferrari crowd, I couldn't POSSIBLY have a good job done on my seats unless I took them to the experts who were well versed in the idiocyncracies of the original seats. In other words, I would have to take them to the dealership and pay dealership prices for original type parts and high dollar labor. Hogwash! We took them to the local upholstery shop about a mile away and they did a fantastic job. They matched the original leather and vinyl fabric, matched the welting and stitching, and duplicated the seats just like they were originally. If you hopped in the truck today, you wouldn't think twice about the seats not being original.

And people are droneing on and on about the cars being "hand made". Well big deal. Just get somebody to "hand make" the seat upholstery or the sheetmetal work or whatever. Everybody has talked numerous times about how BAD the original welding was on the early Ferrari frames. Are you now changing your tune and saying that it requires a "master welder" to make a sloppy looking weld with a Lincoln arc welder???

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that if you want to win a major event, or even get on the field in the case of Pebble Beach, that you don't need a high dollar restoration. That's pretty clear, to me at least.

But, we're talking about a plain jane 275GTB/4. The closest this car is going to get to Pebble Beach is the parking lot, no matter who does the restoration or how much is spent.

My point, anyway, is that if you want to have a nice driver 275, that you can take to Home Depot and not stress about picking up a scratch here or there, or it getting rained on, you don't necessarily need to spend huge dollars to make everything perfect. Not every Ferrari has to have the Ralph Lauren treatment, nor do they need to take the next step and have imperfections added after it's made perfect.

Financially, you may be better off getting a big name, high dollar restoration-- if you intend to resell the car. But what if you want to keep it?

 

If you start with a car that runs and has been maintained you are correct. I bought a 275 GTB like that for 7.5K and drove it 65K miles. It wasn't for free to keep it going. I had to do valve seals/tune ups/and fix the syncros which went away in second. I also had to replace the fuel lines. The work was done by Alberto who owned WWOC. He brought the gearbox parts back from the factory in a suitcase. His rates were fair but it took at least as much as I payed for the car to keep it going. I did no body work at all and drove it with ski's attached to the roof to Vermont several times. It wasn't bad in the snow. I sold it 4 years later for about what I had into it. Sadly it eventually wound up in Walter's Barn. I bet it would take 400K today to get it running and fix the massive corrosion it surely has.

 

I think "Rolling, On Going, Refreshing" is the key. Keep them maintained, repair the damage, realize you'll have a bad day or two but do use them. Never forget that you own them, they don't own you...
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I personally disagree. I know many people who own million dollar Ferraris who drive them often. 250swb, 275 gtbs, 330gtcs and gts.
I personally drive everything I have as often as I can. In the end it just takes time and money to keep them in good shape. Things get much worse if you don't drive them.
Morris

 

+2.
Apples and Oranges from the usual crowd. As I said, a competent resto shop that is experienced in fabrication, paint, etc. can restore a 250, 330, 365 as well as Pontiac GTO, Shelby Cobra, et al. And have these cars concourse quality. The sheet metal for a 330 rolls on an English Wheel the same as on a Cobra. The MIG welder that welds the sheet metal operates at the same temperature.

 

Opie Taylor says to drive that 275 around Mayberry whether it's restored on not!
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Can YOU document where the ONLY way to have a first class restoration is to have the car restored by a shop that ONLY does that marque?
Because I am still waiting to hear from anybody about these specialized body and upholstery tools that only work of Ferrari's. I am still waiting for some detailed experience that is need for paint, body and upholstery that can ONLY be used on Ferrari's, and I still have no examples.

 

English Wheel?

MIG welder?

Game Over.

Thanks for playing.

 

Very true.

 

any more info on this?

 

I think that you're saying that the body panels on vintage factory built Ferraris were hand hammered and the welds were made with gas torches. The factory workers probably also never ate lunch at McDonalds or Burger King either. Does that mean that the craftsmen at today's $350,000 resto project only eat linguini for lunch to keep their skills honed to a fine edge? Pass the olive oil.

 

No Arlie

What I'm saying is that Chicanes statement:

"The sheet metal for a 330 rolls on an English Wheel the same as on a Cobra. The MIG welder that welds the sheet metal operates at the same temperature."

is laughable and that anyone who believes he's correct and follows his advice isn't going to have their Ferrari, that was restored that way, wind up on the Lawn at Pebble IMHO.

 

Once again why is it laughable? What in that statement strikes you as incorrect and why?

http://www.panel-craft.com/publicity.php

http://www.vintagecars.com/restoration/services.html
(Materials & Welding)
Also check out the cool video of the guy with the English Wheel:
http://www.vintagecars.com/restoration/cars_for_sale.html
They say they have more than a few Pebble Beach contenders.

 

This is the original tail of a Ferrari that finished 3 OA at Spa. Is there some part of: it wasn't made with an English Wheel and a MIG welder that you're having trouble understanding? Expert that you are. One who's restored Vintage Cars. One who thinks a restoration shop that would repair it with an English Wheel and a MIG Welder would be doing the proper thing.

Cobra's are fine. In 65 they beat Ferrari's ass as the Chicken Farmer put it. Using an English Wheel to restore a Cobra roadster would be fine. Using an English Wheel to restore all but one of the Original Cobra Daytona Coupes would be wrong.

There are people who can still properly repair and restore an original Ferrari body such as this one but unlike some they know enough and are skilled enough not to use an English Wheel and a MIG Welder to do it. Do they cost a bit more? Yes they do.
Some are willing to pay their rate, you don't feel it's necessary and that using a shop that would use an English Wheel and a MIG welder to repair/restore this tail would be fine.

Kewl...
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I really could care less how that particular tail section was built. I do know that the English Wheel as well as MIG welders (frames and steel panels) are all tools of the trade for artisans who restore classic cars (even Pebble Beach contenders such as yours), as I have proved to you in the links provided.

As of yet though you haven't proved to me how Ferrari Only shops are better, or how their tools or techniques are unique to the marque. As you can see from the links provided those shops do some world class restos and they are NOT Ferrari only shops. The one guy works on American Iron as well as vintage Ferrari's and has a stellar reputation.

The English Wheel is a pretty standard for any reputable fabrication shop. I really do not see how you are going to make the complex curves of many vintage marques without one (besides a hammer and dolly).

 

Since we seemed to have switched from talking about a more mass produced 275 series to an extremely limited production P series factory racer,......exactly what percentage of the selling price would be "knocked off the top" of a P car selling price because somebody utilized an English wheel and a MIG welder to duplicate a few panels on the body? Something tells me it wouldn't amount to a
"hill of beans" difference in the selling price. (assuming there was even one for sale. Calling Walter!!!)

 

Horse guy it seems to me you have this same argument every year. Does it really add anything? The fact is nobody needs to prove anything to you, get a Ferrari and have anyone you want restore it and then tell us about it. It just comes off as one armed pleasuring when you keep making these assertions without you yourself ever having actually done the things you are talking about.

Over 6000 posts and this is what you are talking about:

Horsefly's work day
F50 in North Carolina (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Ready,..set,....barf!!!
The OFFICIAL Ferrarichat UFO Thread (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Abandoned houses in remote locations (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Annual F-chat turkey fryer explosion search
Quick justice!!!
Body aluminum alloy material
Subway's pizza (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Another Sbarro "Ferrari"???
Sheep in wolf's clothing??? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
ATV question
Popeye's restaurant rips me off!!! (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Repro Testa Rossas body and chassis (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Bridge collapse in Minnesota!!! (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Nice doggies!!!
Lambo marine engines
Bad day for aircraft:
Paper airplanes in the 1800s???
1973 Porsche question (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Bill Marriott collection on ABC Nightline
Digging up the 1957 Tulsa Plymouth!!! (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Prank Dr. Phil phone call- Hilarious!!
Ultra obscure vintage video find!
Help Paris stamp license plates!
Numbskull Ferrari show off driver
Garage and concrete slab questions
What is "special" about a V12 rebuild? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
What's the farthest distance you've been.. (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
Pontiac Car Fax VIN Request
What's up with Entertainment Tonight?


Is work that boring?

Yale

 

Yale, thanks for listing many of my postings. Judging by the fact that many of them are multi-page threads, somebody must be enjoying the conversation. If you don't wish to discuss the possibility that said 275 Ferrari MIGHT could be restored for less than the aforementioned $350,000 price tag, then don't read the discussion. Nobody is forcing you to get involved. And please don't waste VINTAGE thread space by listing any particular member's NON Vintage threads. The moderators probably wouldn't appreciate it. (your posting should probably be deleted because it doesn't even remotely concern the ongoing discussion.)

(And Yale, before you criticize an F-chat MEMBER, how about antying up a few bucks and JOINING the board as a real member! If you own a Ferrari, surely you can cough up 50 bucks for a membership. I did.)

 

The point you are missing is that Ferrari did not use an English wheel (or so it is documented in all the books), thus a hammer and dolly is the correct way to build/restore these bodies.

A restorations quality is in the details ... if I owned a 250LM (for example) and I pranged it, and the place I went to get it fixed wanted to use an English wheel I would be upset.
Pete

 

An English wheel is a mechanical hammer and dolly...that's really all it is. Restorers are not there to take the EXACT same path as the OEM but to achieve the EXACT same result. It would take a small team of men to hammer and dolly a complete car in any reasonable period of time.

 

Sadly, I think you will find many old Ferraris on either side of the 250LM value scale have been over-restored using English wheel. There are plenty of (unsophisticated ?)customers who would look at the quality of 1967 Scaglietti panel work and say "you gotta be joking !"

Not everyone has the sympathetic preservation heart of guys like Napolis.

Where this thread is going off track I think is that we are talking of a regular production Ferrari made in the hundreds, not too an especially high standard, that is now on a revered pedestal. I see no harm in keeping a driver quality car just so without getting one's wallet peeled by the "Gurus". Yes, its just a lump of steel/alloy/rubber/plastic that can be painted, trimmed and maintained to an reasonable quality for an average price. After all, isn't this how many of them survived the 1970's when they weren't "worth a tin of beans" ?

I realise I stand to be judged a Philistine for expressing this view on this forum, but I do know for a fact that its very much a case if the man will pay a Ferrari price, charge him a Ferrari price. Doesn't mean you need to pay it though if you know better, and are happy with a lower standard of presentation.

I do believe its easy to over capitalise on some of these barn finds. Take this 275GTB-4 for example. Spend $350,000 on it, sure you'll have a great car. But spend $100,000 and you won't have a car thats worth $250k less.

 

Look on the Bright side Pete you could put the original body to good use as these guys did:


http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/06/ferrari-gto-cufflinks-made-of-real-ferrari-gto/

How's your project coming along?

Cheers

 

I think you're right but it's a fluid, changing thing. While having any competent person repair a 550, for example, would be fine I still think repairing/restoring a 275 GTB improperly would be a mistake from an economic point of view. These cars trade today at over 1 million US. Improperly restoring a major car can cause the damage to rise into the millions. From a value point of view the less you do to a Major car to change it from what is originally was is best. Carefully preserving and repairing the ravages of time with the proper techniques does matter on Major Cars. The amount it matters is measured in the millions of dollars.

Take this one of mine for example. When the time came to gently clean it up and make sure after it's 40 year rest in the Museum it was ready for the 1000KLM of the Giro d'Sicilia/Targa Florio I elected to have Pininfarina do the work. I could have used someone else but somehow I'm happy with my decision even though it may have cost somewhat more than other alternatives.

Cheers!
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Love your Dino, it warrants what you can lavish on it !

Back to the discussion, yes, an A-grade 4 cam is worth $1m to $1.1m. I guess what I'm saying is there's still a place on the playing field for a solid B+ car worth say $850,000. I like to see faded & stone chipped paint on a well used car, as long as its well maintained as a safe and reliable driver. My own old Lusso is just that, the $50,000 I could afford to spend went on a fresh motor and brake overhaul.
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