News

250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Heck I would struggle to spend 6 hours (in one sitting) looking at a single car and it's documentation.

    Also I imagine that part of the way you "play" an auction is to not look very keen otherwise you could start a bidding war and push the price up ... ??
    Pete
     
  2. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
    1,611
    Full Name:
    Ferrari-tech
    Agreed, I've been going to these things long enough, and its fairly easy to spot the straw sales. The $24m Ferrari that went last year (NART 275 I think) was very real and very quick compared to what I witnessed on Friday night.
     
  3. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    #203 babci, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
    lgs, Pete, FERRARI-TECH,

    My compliments salient, relevant and tasty posts by all of you. The true sale amount figure will probably never really be known to anyone here on the thread other than the auction company's financial department, the vendor, and the purchaser. In the real world the entire auction process history has been shown more than to be adequately rife with opportunities for all sort of creative manipulation.(Legal disclaimer: In no way do I suggest or intend to infer any legal impropriety was committed by RM or any of the other participants of the transaction)

    For confirmation of the above see: Going Once, Going Twice ... Glamour, Greed and Fraud at Sotheby's and Christie's - Knowledge@Wharton or FBI ? William Mastro and Two Other Executives of Former Mastro Auctions Indicted for Allegedly Defrauding Bidders in Online and Live Auctions of Sports Memorabilia and Other Collectibles. If not sufficiently satiated goggling the subject will keep one busy until one is adequately entertained and satisfied .

    Of somewhat similar unknown for us here is the chassis content issue. No one from the vendor to any of the proponents here on the thread for 6045 has been forthcoming with any presentation here on the thread of actual documentation necessary to prove who replaced exactly what during the various repairs that were conducted since the fire over 40 years ago. Whether or not it if that has been done for deceptive reasons or financial gain is currently not determinable and is a mute point as a demonstratively illustrated public sale has taken place (the webcast of the auction for those unable to attend the actual event).

    The transparency of the entire transaction will remain opaque until someone outside the auction company, vendor or the purchaser gains access to the appropriate documentation and publishes it here on the thread for all to see. I suspect that this is highly unlikely to ever occur as it would probably require some sort of surreptitious illegal activity to unearth the data required (Legal disclaimer :highly not recommended, suggested or condoned by me).

    IMHO I think the best solution is to look at the transaction and accept that it seems to have changed hands then form your own personal opinion about how it happened and how much it happened for then move forward and wait to see if the actual truth, should it be something different from the public image presented so far ever surfaces.

    I feel it will far better to wait for the next chapter to unfold and observe if the new owner appears with it and see if he uses it for some activity rather than standing on the grass with it in order to take home another Platinum award for keeping it polished or decides to use it and can drive it the way it should be driven for all of us to enjoy rather than waste any more time speculating on what will remain unknown for the moment or feeding the dark shadow of irrelevance and his associates with any further unwarranted attention.
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    #204 lgs, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After being burnt and an “insurance write off” in 1969, the wreck was severely butchered and subsequently some remains between 1986 and 2013/4 four (or five) times rebuilt. But apart from the seller’s rather naïve promotion documents and any kind of incantation, so far no facts, connected to the chassis’ very interesting history, were made available.

    What is “car original” from 1964? This is simply the vital question to be answered, when a car claims to be a “1964 Ferrari LM 250 by Scaglietti” and sold for $12M with a Classiche Certificate. Following a brief attempt to structure and document a few relevant steps in the car’s rebuilding process:

    After 1988 a numberless *new* Almec/Cantelli replica chassis used and the 1st Bachelli replica body put on it (picture 1; shown with some Slavic “5149”).

    After 2011 still with the numberless Almec/Cantelli chassis and the 1st Bachelli-body, (dark red/amarante), but *original* engine from the “Freshman” car installed (picture 2 & 3).

    After 2013 Classiche certified; *new* repro Vaccari-chassis and *original* #6045 “Freshman” tag bar (with additional Classiche-tag) used, 2nd and *new* Bachelli-body, (bright red/cina) and UTM 654 plates put on it; original engine rebuilt, engine and gear box (?) installed (picture 4 & 5)
    - 1. Bachelli-body (dark red/amarante) kept separately on a frame, not destroyed
    - all chassis remains (Almec/Cantelli and Freshman) destroyed
    - gear box (broken during video clip production) repaired/replaced (?)

    Very stunning creation for sure, but simply no period product and “Scaglietti” has certainly nothing to do with it. And this can’t be even changed by any “approvals” or a Classiche-Certificate.

    Of course I stand corrected and all inputs are highly welcome.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    It is a pity Symbolic Motors or Bill Noon have removed their information on this car from their site as from memory they were heavily involved with restoring #6045 at one stage, around the remains of the chassis. At this stage Ferrari restamped a P2 engine for #6045.

    I also don't understand the apparent 4 or 5 rebuilds ... weird. I also thought that Classiche reuinited the original chassis with the original engine just now as part of the certification??
    Pete
     
  6. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    #206 babci, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014

    lgs excellent work. My thoughts regarding your details of the time line and my following HYPOTHETICALLY possible sequence of events:"numberless *new* Almec/Cantelli replica chassis used and the 1st Bachelli replica body put on it (picture 1; shown with some Slavic “5149”)."

    Picture #1This car likely was/is the car that is the original first reconstructed 6045 and is the so called claimed documented by "Vaccari" repaired repo'd chassis car before the many generations of restoration and is the car that was currently RM auctioned.

    "After 2011 still with the numberless Almec/Cantelli chassis and the 1st Bachelli-body, (dark red/amarante), but *original* engine from the “Freshman” car installed (picture 2 & 3)."

    Picture #2 Having seen the original Freshman replica in person on two occasions and the "Bachelli-body, (bright red/cina) Schon, Ulrich Guggisberg,Snell, DK multi restored" version once in the past I can say with confidence that the Freshman version was the one painted the dark red color (picture #2). Also see (Cobra Ferrari Wars - Ferrari LM) for a rather revealing set of pictures of it that confirms the dark red color of the Freshman replica while in possession of Mike Shoen.

    Picture#3 Looks as if it was from DK website. Seems to be when enlarged and closely examined the Bachelli-body, Schon, Ulrich Guggisberg, Snell, DK multi restored (bright red/cina) car without the original chassis tag present on the engine compartment cross tube prior to the DK restoration (Color of the photo is off and slightly darker than the cina red and that is mostly likely due to lighting and it is certainly not appearing to be the dark red shown in picture #2)

    In light of the above IMO HYPOTHETICALLY perhaps a more likely sequence of events COULD have been:

    Since it seems DK only managed to purchase the Freshman dark red replica sometime early in 2011 it looks as if DK could have used it for the Octane article which outlined their version of what historically took place and is the same car as in your picture #2 you have in your post. Then DK took the first version Bachelli-body, Schon, Ulrich Guggisberg, Snell bright red/cina car (the multi owner passed on at various stages of restoration to the completion of the 1st restoration) (after acquiring the Freshman replica) stripped it and restored it again while swapping over the whatever original good parts were available from the Freshman car to the Bachelli version in order to reinforce their historical version of events in preparation for presentation to Classiche.

    Sometime during this process they put the rest of the left over parts removed from the Bachelli version on the Freshman car further improving their package for Classiche presentation. At some point during this process they conducted the referenced metallurgical testing at their own facility in the UK again in order to reinforce their version of events prior to Classiche presentation.

    After completing the presentation package DK presents the two cars etc. to Classiche in order to have them re restore (while correcting anything they missed on the Bachelli-body, Schon, Ulrich Guggisberg, Snell, DK) multi restored bright red/cina car in order to have Classiche unwittingly produce the most marketable version "A Classiche" certified car while simultaneously have Classiche cut up the body chassis remains of the Freshman Dark red replica.

    Finally after a well conducted concours and "seminar presentation" marketing campaign DK and related vendor owners had RM auction the remaining Classiche certified version.

    In any case regardless of whatever has really occurred, lgs your first picture is very much appreciated and is highly revealing solid proof of you statement regarding observing the 6045 version you saw back in the beginning days of the dramatic on going historical saga "The 6045 Mysteries". May the audience draw their own conclusions.
     
  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Timeline and pictures just refer to the "Non Freshman" car.

    DK Cars mixed the cars? On the DK website not just shown the "Non Freshman" car? Mixed use of the cars under same identity?
     
  8. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281

    "Timeline and pictures just refer to the "Non Freshman" car."

    lgs your picture#2 seems to be the Freshman car when compared to other known photos of it.

    "DK Cars mixed the cars?

    "If you mean the parts of one car to another it POSSIBLY could have happened.

    Did you check out the Cobra wars website link in the last post of and look at the pictures and story about the Freshman/ Fossil Motorsports replica?
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
  10. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    When did Michael Schoen own the Freshman car? Some pictures would be appreciated.
     
  11. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    6,141
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    #211 tomgt, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  12. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    #212 babci, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
    Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of the Freshman replica other than the ones that may be it on the DK site, and in the Octane article. Looks for sure to be it on the link tomgt provided noted in his post. All I initially was able to find were on the Shoen website. I do not know when he sold it or when it went to the Netherlands and on to the other owners. Only thing I am aware of is that it got sold to DK some time in early 2011. I suggest you contact Shoen and see if he can provide better pictures than are on his web page.

    His contact information if it is still good is on the web page as:
    email michaelshoen@rocketmail.com to request information about the Second Edition of the Cobra-Ferrari Wars 1963-1965
    6719 E.Malcomb Drive
    Paradise Valley, AZ 85253 USA
    Phone: 480 483 3537
    Fax: 480 922 9767
    michaelshoen@rocketmail.com
     
  13. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    Looks like different colors and different cars. However who knows for real and it is quite clear one will never be able to compare the 2 cars again as DK saw to it that could not happen by making sure the Freshman replica got destroyed. Convenient coincidence?
     
  14. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Really? DK really mixes the cars on its website? What color had the 'Non Freshman Car' when bought by DK in 2007? Did the color later change? And which car was presented in Octane?

    But let's stay focused on the certified creation. In 2011, the car had the original engine and was top class "rebuilt/restored" from DK "to period correct specification". Why now the Classiche restauration in 2013/4, after the car has been "carefully examined" and "approved" from "a world expert"?

    (DK Engineering - Restoration - Ferrari 250 LM)

    What was really the need of the Classiche restauration? Wrong things examined and approved before? And what was used, what is car original and what was finally destroyed from the two cars? May be David Moses is back from holiday and could kindly provide some pictures from Cavallino's detailed seminar/lecture of the *bare* chassis finally applied and certified?
     
  15. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281

    "DK really mixes the cars on its website?"

    If you look at all the pictures you can see that they are defiantly different colored cars.

    "What color had the 'Non Freshman Car' when bought by DK in 2007?"

    No way to know for sure other than to hope someone else other than DK has pictures of it from that time period. When Symbolic had it was Cina red. On the DK website you can see it was Cina red in the pictures shown during the restoration period and in the pictures with the snow in the background. What difference does it make what color it was when purchased?

    "And which car was presented in Octane?"

    No way to tell for absolute certain other than it was a car that was Dark Red the same color as the Freshman car.

    "What was really the need of the Classiche restauration?"

    Likely for enhancement of the sale value since it appears as if most of the new generation of buyers seems to believe Classiche certification is the "Ultimate and never wrong authority on establishing and providing endorsement of originality and history etc " Also may been done to have the Freshman car destroyed by somebody other than themselves (DK) to cover their tracks.

    "And what was used, what is car original and what was finally destroyed from the two cars"

    IMO the best of what was left of the fire damaged original. However it will never really be able to be determined for certain. Clearly the Freshman car was a new chassis and body with the original engine and a small cut off section of the original fire damaged chassis incorporated into it along with a bunch of the other salvaged parts of the fire damaged original car he collected over the years. If you want more definitive information regarding what he may of had maybe you should try to contact him at Fossil Motorsports. He never claimed it to be anything other than a reconstructed car. The Freshman Chassis and Body were destroyed by Classiche for sure according to someone who has seen the Classiche Red Book. Whatever else was finally destroyed by DK or Classiche will unlikely to be ever known for absolute certain.
     
  16. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Never eliminate material that created a car's history. 3445GT was rebodied around 1964 and again in the 70ies as a Series 1 GTO. This body - although not original - should be used or kept after the accident, because it formed the car's identity and is for sure an important part of the car's racing and concourse history over more then three decades. To save history and be transparent, Mercedes-Benz Classic Service Center in Fellbach only replaces important parts, if the owner is willing to separately keep the replaced items.

    Mercedes-Benz Classic Home - Classic Service Center Deutschland - Über uns

    The same with 6045 and the wonderful Fossil creation: The Freshman car had 6045's original chassis number, the original engine and other car original parts for more then *30 years* and is certainly an important part of 6045's history. However, this history would be irreversibly erased with the - reputed - destruction (as well as eventual proves eliminated). Coincidence?
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Er, no. This car was just a replica with an original engine and a few genuine parts ... not part of 6045's history at all IMO. Otherwise what about the, for example, 6045 replica Joe Bloggs built in his backyard with a Chev v8 ...
    Pete
     
  18. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    The Freshman car had 6045's original chassis number and engine plus other car original parts for more then *30* years! Really not connected to 6045's history? And why the heck did DK buy it? Hardly Joe Blogg's backyard V8 ...
     
  19. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    #219 babci, Aug 24, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
     
  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    The "Non Freshman Car" had no number, a wrong engine, a replica body and some sort of chassis with different bits and pieces. Before, Dr. Kelly had bought the wreck and “insurance write off” just for spare purposes and many parts were used in 6023 as well as parts sold to Albert Obrist, until the car finally and after 23 years was on the road again. Honestly, isn’t this creation slightly closer to Joe Blogg's car?
     
  21. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Absolutely!
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    As I said earlier both of you have been debating that the Freshman car was the more original for some time in this thread but I was told that you were not doing this, when very obviously you are.

    And the answer has to be no, surely. The other car had the remains of the original chassis and now had been reunited with the original engine. All good.

    But yes I concede that the history of the engine for those 30 years is indeed part of #6045's overall history, so I was wrong there.

    We need to remember that the chassis IS the car, not the engine. This has been proved many time and legally as well. We might not all like this but this is a indisputable fact.

    In the end 30 years ago a poor IMO decision was made to build the replica. Now I do not know who made that decision and the exact reasons but the chance to make #6045 whole again was not taken. Yes a great replica was made, but it was a replica.

    Now I will concede if the only thing left of #6045 was that one tube with the chassis number on it and the engine AND all other chassis parts were 100% destroyed then the continuous history of #6045 would have become the Freshman replica, but that is not what happened. An attempt was made to purchase the original engine from the GTO owner and for some unknown reason a decision was made to make another #6045 unfortunately.

    Now I've read Symbolic motors story on #6045 and the current indisputable expert on 250LM's, Marcel, and both cases confirm that the non-Freshman car has the original chassis minus that engine mount tube and the tail of the chassis where it was cut off. This non-Freshman car did not die.

    So IMO the right thing has been done, and yes you are right the history of #6045 for the rest of eternity has to document that the engine was used to power a quality replica for 30 years before it was reunited with the original chassis.
    Pete
    ps: yes it is a shame that such quality work was destroyed but that had to happen to stop another #6045 appearing again and with the Italian replica laws what they are now.
     
  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Wrong, there is no half or "more original" car and the Freshman creation has/had no original frame. Nevertheless, the Freshman car is with its original tag and engine plus other bits a very important part of 6045's history. Mark items clearly like MB, but never destroy history and evidence. And no, I just know, that the tag bar is period original on the certified car's new frame.
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    As I said Symbolic Motors and Marcel believe otherwise and that the non-Freshman car contained not a new chassis but a restored original chassis. I have to believe Marcel over you lgs, sorry. Marcel is the world expert on 250LMs. Wrote the best book on them and has followed their history. Maybe you saw the restored frame being bodied with a new shell?

    And there was no need to keep the Freshman chassis, other than the tag bar, because it was definitely a replica. I'm sure all other original components were not destroyed but used where they could for the current car. So I assume (without any knowledge) that just the replica chassis and body were destroyed.

    Anyway I'll let you and babci continue your discussion. I think what is happening is that you both have seen Freshman's #6045 and formed an attachment and are understandably disappointed. I do understand this because I am still upset about the Alfa Romeo #6018 been turned into a race car as that car lived down here in Australia and New Zealand and I've enjoyed seeing it many times and it never was a race car.

    We have a single #6045 now which I think is great and hopefully you both will see it in action soon. I never will unless the owner decides to make a visit Down Under :).
    Best
    Pete
     
  25. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    Pete,

    "As I said earlier both of you have been debating that the Freshman car was the more original for some time in this thread but I was told that you were not doing this, when very obviously you are."

    You are totally mistaken. I cannot speak for lgs but I do not find any evidence that he is saying the Freshman car was more original. Personally I am not nor never have been debating or suggesting the Freshman car was the more original of the two cars in any shape or form. So please kindly stop refraining or suggesting that I am.

    "We need to remember that the chassis IS the car, not the engine. This has been proved many time and legally as well."

    What I am stating and want to make abundantly clear is that IMO there is a case to be made that there has never been any independently verified documentary evidence EVER presented here in this thread by Symbolic or ANYONE ELSE including Marcel other than the pictures taken from the selling vendors presentation folder of some rusted, and trashed remains of the original fire damaged version that not vary clearly shows how much of the original chassis survived and EXACTLY what of those remains were/was able to be used in the surviving reconstruction. How about some documentary evidence of the supposed "Vaccari" repairs being done in the day or subsequently from Classiche being posted here to clear this issue up. Until that happens it is just speculation as what may have taken place by any of the various vendors who had a finically or" horse in the race" motivated reason to do so as I theorized HYPOTHETICALLY in all of my pervious posts.

    " Now I do not know who made that decision and the exact reasons but the chance to make #6045 whole again was not taken."

    I certainly agree you do not know who made the decision or the exact reasons why. Only Freshman knows why he chose to reconstruct his version of 6045. But since there has never been illustrated documentary evidence ever posted here by him regarding his reasons or what opportunities Freshman or any of the subsequent owners may have had regarding making 6045 " make whole" (and I am not suggesting it has been) in the intervening 30 years your comment is only speculation as to what may have occurred in that regard. That said I suggest you contact Freshman about his version of 6045 and see if he would be willing to enlighten you on not only why he did reconstruct his version but also what parts he actually had when doing so and what opportunities he had to make "make whole" occurred with him prior to selling it on rather than speculate on what happened. While you are at it maybe track down the subsequent owners of the Freshman version and see if you can provide actual documentary proof of what other opportunities they actually may have had in the intervening years to "make whole" and did not act on. It would a great contribution to the saga.

    "An attempt was made to purchase the original engine from the GTO owner and for some unknown reason a decision was made to make another #6045 unfortunately"

    Freshman did not make an attempt. He stepped up and bought the engine as a spare early on during his ownership and vintage race campaigning of his genuine LM indentified at that time as 6023. He collected the rest of the parts over several years. He has never has stated his reasons for reconstructing his version of 6045 and for you say it was "unfortunate" he did is simply your opinion which you are more than entitled to. However IMO had Freshman not done so the engine and other original parts he used including the VERY IMPORTANT original chassis tag and tube to which it was attached might have been lost forever in some memorabilia hording collectors mausoleum or more likely have been scattered to the winds in the intervening 40 years rather be around to accomplish the reconstruction of whatever the remaining 6045 is and would have not been so conveniently available for DK to profit with.

    IMO I find incredibly interesting and relevent to the chassis content issue that lgs was able to provide the very provocative photo proof of the 6045 version he saw being constructed back in the day as back up his statements in contrast to any of the other proponents of the current remaining what is it 6045 who have provided NOTHING HERE in the way of actual documentation other than their opinions.
     

Share This Page