250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

"True but we are talking about man made machines so this happens. It doesn't mean it is ignored, just affects value. Obviously if the history of this car worries a potential buyer they will move on to another, or only bid so high."

Glad to see you agree with me that the "Classiche Certified" bitsa, rebodied, re-chassied? 6045 creation is just a question mark car. Since all of the history and unanswered questions just effects the value according to your theory than you seem to agree with me that until the auction is over is not possible to credibility establish other than a guess current value. My point is and has been: That value, if there is one will only be established if someone actually holds up their hand and writes a check for real on the RM auction day.

"The replica built with the original engine was NOT 6045 and could never be and the car that Ferrari supplied the 250P engine too was the closest to 6045 out of the two"

"Closest of the two" Hmm... seems "closest" was not 6045 either.

"The replica built with the original engine was NOT 6045 and could never be and the car that Ferrari supplied the 250P engine"

To Freshmans credit he never claimed his car was anything other than what it was: a newly bodied and chassied car incorporating some of the old original burned cars chassis tubes, supposed original engine (Came from Don Walkers GTO which got sold to Ralph Lauren who then discovered it and pitched a ***** enough to get the right engine back. Then Walker sold the reputed to be original 6045/LM14 engine through Bruno Borri/Walt McCune to him according to Freshman. Which in his opinion looks like it may be restamped) plus all of other the parts he tracked down.

What proof do you have or exists (Ferrari invoice?) that Ferrari supplied and or even had the supposed spare 250P engine in the 1980s period 20 years + after the 250Ps were current (way before Ferraris interest in providing any restoration, authenticating, certifying etc. services via Classiche (for $) which incidentally farms out all current replica vintage engine casting and machine work to local subcontractors to such extent that they are not original Ferrari engines produced by them and could be considered replica engines with only the final assembly and holy water stamping of numbers possibly being done inside the walls) when the other trashed remains that were reputedly purchased by and were rebuilt by the various vendor restorers Giorgio Schon, Ulrich Guggisberg etc. The current so called 250P engine pictured in this thread has a wrong calligraphically stamped number pad (with the 4 # in the sequence being to small in relation to the other numbers a mistake Ferrari would not have made if they supplied and stamped the motor in the day.) and shows no visible No. Interno number in the picture.

"Note: I might have got the wrong end of the story but that is how I understood it, engine never went back to right car because owner of said engine wanted a small fortune and so out of spite build a replica."

I beg to differ with you. You are simply spreading hearsay and trying to legitimize some sort of rumor as well as make a disparaging remark about Freshman's character. All done without identifying the source of your statement, nor appearing to have attempted to contact Freshman to fact check and ask him for his reasoning for building the replica, nor do you have any factual knowledge or are presenting any factual evidence of what parts he actually had in hand when he built his car.
(easy to do: just call or e-mail Fossil Motorsports and state your reason for wanting to talk to him. If he is not there he will be notified. He is good at getting back to people)

The above by the way is according to what Freshman told me when I spoke to him today about this.

Further fortunately he continues to think the entire 6045 situation is getting even more hilarious to the extent that now that the current vendors are the ones trying to strike it 7 to 8 figure rich with such a questionable recreation that it appears that it is creating a sh**t storm of interest in the subject and seems to be causing his phone to be ringing a lot for the last few weeks with all sorts of weird people such as myself wanting info. He asked me to pass the following message to all: "Thanks for all your attention and worship. Time is short and along with enjoying whatever is left in my personal life I am far too busy accomplishing real life work i.e: Fettling for the last few points on the restored/show prepared by my shop Fossil Motorsports Inc. clients 2014 Pasadena FCA Platinum winning 365GTC, completing the restoration of my 250 Alloy Low Roof Boano, tending to Indy Winning Miller projects, manufacturing the best Miller-Offenhauser-Meyer Drake 255-270 blocks in the world, completing the assembly of the last of six Tipo 340-60840 millimeter perfect new, bullet proof, split case, complete hub to hub rear axle assemblies for 250MM, early TDF/Boano that I had the honor to redesign and manufacture in concert with Bob Wallace prior to his unfortunate passing along with a bunch of other interesting Miller-Offenhauser-Meyer Drake/Ferrari/Historic and Vintage race car projects to be very interested or give a Fat Rats A*s about or regarding the uniformed opinions about my version of 6045 from a bunch of some self proclaimed, so called experts, goofballs, clowns and time wasters who have never owned, drove or wrenched a real LM such as myself who has and in addition were never in my shop or were never present in the shop at the time when I and my merry posse of highly skilled dedicated employees built our version of 6045. Further in a free society it is not incumbent upon me or anyone else to have to explain to anyone the reasons why I/they built something if they do not wish to do so unless it was an illegal act they for which they are under indictment for and are in court or other legal environment in that society"

In certain quarters your statement could be considered slanderous of Freshman.

 

I got that story from this site and I don't think Freshman is the person the story was about, he just made the replica. Here is the reference for story http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/136353874-post24.html

Again surely this current car is the best of the previous 2 as it surely has the combined original parts into one car.

Btw:

Barchetta also say remains of the Freshman replica were sent to Classiche.

So IMHO this car was/is 6045 with the correct repaired chassis. This is the DK car that has now been Classiche'd. Freshman's, as he stated, was the replica.
Pete

 

Oh, I see you now don't THINK the story was about Freshman and simply based your statement on your interpretation of some 7 year old unsubstantiated by proof post from someone who did not ask Freshman, nor is known by him or ever was in his shop which in actuality says:" Maybe out of spite (not getting 50% and all) had a new car built @ Fossil" Pathetic after coming on strong with your conveniently appropriated misquoted portion of someone else's orignal post.

"Again surely this current car is the best of the previous 2 as it "surely" has the combined original parts into one car." Perhaps I am missing something here but the word surely is subjective and merely your personal opinion. So where is your factual documented proof of what parts you are talking about.

Since you continue to refuse to offer any direct proof to back up your opinions nor answer any of my or any of the other various unanswered questions regarding the parts etc. I am willing to agree your statements are only your personal opinions and have no factual basis or shred of creditability.

Regarding the content originality of the newly Classiched 6045 chassis, the inspection of the heat damaged remains conducted by Florini Gaetano at Fulvio Visloli 's place and the supposed repair of the heat damaged original chassis remains in the 80s. I am merely suggesting as I stated in a slightly different way in my earlier post that with the cut off portion of the chassis missing in the possession of Freshman and with the rest of the remains being exposed to heat damage high enough to melt much of the body to the chassis thus causing removal of the temper strength of the steel tubes and welds to may have made it necessary to replace the chassis totally to maintain structural integrity and safety.

Further with that in mind along with the in the period oppressive VAT purchase taxes I personally experienced when I visited the country a lot during those and following years it was common practice when I asked for the price of something when making a significant purchase the usual reply depending on what business I was dealing with was how was I going to pay "Nero or Bianco" or cash with no invoice/doctored invoice or check with invoice full price and tax. Translation Black=cash no invoice/doctored invoice=lower tax or no VAT tax for the purchaser to pay and no VAT or lowered tax for seller to collect to pay or no income tax for the seller to pay. So in order for the restoring vendors to maintain the appearance of content originality history (Motivation -Higher resale value than a new no longer original chassis car) thus maximizing resale profit while cutting the resto costs for themselves while minimizing the tax on profit paid by the chassis builder it is therefore hypothetically possible they may have simply paid cash and had the new chassis invoiced as repaired for a lower value. One will never know for sure.

The only thing that is CERTAIN about the remaining 6045 WHAT IS IT CAR'S VALUE is that it will ONLY WILL BE DETERMINED on the RM Auction block the day of the auction.

 

Babci,

I never mentioned Freshman (until my last post when I said I don't think the story was about him), or anybody, you did not me. I was just relaying a story.

And yes my opinion is that it is logical that if they had all the parts available they would have used them. Costs money to make new ones .
Pete

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I744qH8mwIk]Ferrari 250 Le Mans 1964 " topolino amaranto " - YouTube[/ame]

A slightly different one ...

 

Are you saying this is another #6045?
Pete

 

Come on, guys, everybody knows that the silver one is 5995.
Zero relation to 6045.

Marcel Massini

 

#5995! Of course a different but completly story free lhd road car. Sorry for the confusion!

 

Ah, understand your point now.
Pete

 

I haven’t looked on this thread for a little while so surprised to see Babci still going at it!

What is your Axe to grind with this one? Have you ever been involved with 6045? Have you ever seen the car?

Do you know Freshman? You seem form previous posts to very much support him.
Since your profile is so secretive maybe you are Mr Freshman?

You ask questions, people answer and then you ignore their responses!

 

Ron Kellogg (owner February 1972)?

Marcel Massini

 

This story reminds me of a similar one with a Jaguar D Type. One owner finally bought both and made one that had all the original parts. The other one became a replica. In this case the replica is toast.

 

Some sales are different.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

5149 as represented by Brockbank

 

"You ask questions, people answer and then you ignore their responses!"

I only ignore the ones from the questioners who have refused or ignored to have answered mine such as PSK and yourself. Sometimes I make exceptions to that, this will be one of them.

"What is your Axe to grind with this one?"

None. Just presenting my alternative views and hypothecating as I see fit like yourself and others on this thread while not campaigning for the Classiche car such as PSK or you.

"Have you ever been involved with 6045?
No

"Have you ever seen the car?"

Yes saw both versions many years ago. The Colombo/Schon/Snell version once at Symbolic. The Freshman version twice once when owned by Mike Schoen and then again when Bernard Hallingby/Nick Sprano had it. Did you ever see either one?

"Since your profile is so secretive maybe you are Mr Freshman?"

No I am not and I take exception to your slimy inference that I might be.

"Do you know Freshman? You seem form previous posts to very much support him.

Yes I do- DO YOU? I would not consider him a close friend. I have had the pleasure to speak with him many times and seen in action multiple examples of his show and vintage race winning work over the years. He is generally very friendly, can be easily contacted and will respond if one leaves a message at his shop. He has been a participator in the Ferrari community from the early 80s, has been very supportive of the Ferrari community by offering his knowledge for free to most who ask, was one of the first guys to make really excellent unavailable parts not only to restore the cars he owned or worked on for others but also offered them to the public as well and continues to do so, therefore I respect him and his talents as do many others in the vintage Ferrari and vintage race car world. I think to paraphrase from Freshman's message to all included in my earlier post best reflects his attitude regarding this subject and pretty well sums up the situation regarding the determinability for certain of the potential originality content, history etc. promulgated by posters such as yourself and others of the so called "Classiche Certified 6045": (Freshman)Time is short. I am far too busy accomplishing real life work to be very interested or give a Fat Rats A*s about or regarding the uniformed opinions about my version of 6045 from a bunch of some self proclaimed, so called experts, goofballs, clowns and time wasters who have never owned, drove or wrenched a real LM such as myself who has and in addition were never in my shop or were never present in the shop at the time when I and my merry posse of highly skilled dedicated employees built our version of 6045. Further in a free society it is not incumbent upon me or anyone else to have to explain to anyone the reasons why I/they built something if they do not wish to do so unless it was an illegal act they committed (corrected original post misedit) for which they are under indictment for and are in court or other legal environment in that society"

In closing I repeat THE ONLY VALUE THE REMAINING NEW CLASSICHE 6045 HAS IF ANY WILL ONLY BE KNOWN THE DAY OF THE RM AUCTION. ENJOY

 

I wasn't aware that I had not answered a question ... seriously.

BTW: I'm not a Classiche fan, but I do agree that making one car out of the two 6045's was the right thing to do, no matter who did it.
Best
Pete

 

Some answer to post #60 would be much appreciated.

 

The "seminar" was organised by John Barnes and Cavallino, the purpose was as a item of interest and enjoyment for the guests

It's an exciting story they obviously felt deserved to be properly told.

 

Dear all,

I think in the context of this thread it is important that it is known that "Babci" is in fact (despite his earlier lies) Richard Freshman, the same Richard Freshman of Fossil Motorsports who built the fake 6045 in the first place.

Unbelievable!!!

 

By the way, the above is not speculation. It is confirmed FACT!

 

Thank you and much appreciated!

But how was properly told for enjoyment and interest of the guests, that the “original” had no number and correct engine and the other car the original motor and the original chassis tag? Wrong? And why should the engine- and numberless remains be an “original”? And is it correct, that a completely new chassis and body was used and the rest allegedly destroyed?

 

Not sure where you get your "facts". I have no idea who "babci" is but I know it is not Freshman. He does not have a profile on Ferrarichat.

 

Neither chassis were original so there is no argument that either should have been used over the other ... welding on a chassis tag does not make the chassis better/more original

Actually the first chassis was allegedly repaired by the original chassis makers, so I would have picked that one, but can see why Ferrari started again
Pete

 

Interesting! But what is finally period original?

 

“Babci” correspondence goes to his wifes e mail address. I have proof from a friend. Babci is 100% Richard Freshman. If you read all his posts over the years it is obvious.