250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045 | Page 2 | FerrariChat

250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Splitting Atoms

    Splitting Atoms Formula 3

    Sep 18, 2011
    1,557
    South Carolina
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Why wouldn't they leave the original VIN plate on the car? Did it not have one?
     
  2. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    The original VIN would be certainly more interesting ...
     
  3. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    Bira, many thanks for your post. The car IS drivable, with the noted short-comings. I drove mine from San Francisco to L.A., and from L.A. to Orange County, among many other trips. Mine (5909) was worse than most, as the pedal bellows were shot, letting all the radiator heat in. With the big windshield and the water pipes running through the sills, and the engine right by one's backside, it was one hot car to drive in more ways than one. Beside the heat and the crash-box, though, it was just another car to drive. Not at all as bad as the 206SP, which took 3 people and a half-hour to start and run (not to mention no ground clearance.)
     
  4. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    thanks Ed. Yes those were the days where owners were driving their cars long distance, not putting them on a trailer!
    I took my 250MM in the Alps for a 500 miles tour back from the mechanic through mountain passes and got caught by snow in late May!
    in Europe though usually problem is the cold, not extreme heat!
    But i am happy in retrospect i passed on the purchase of a 206SP, they look very nice, even if they are super small inside,,,but the idea to drive it on the road is a little bit extreme,,,
     
  5. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 20, 2004
    6,629
    Short nose for the win....they took a shark and made it a grouper....IMO. ;)
     
  6. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    How many LMs are in the States?
    I know of three at least.
     
  7. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2007
    91,702
    yes but the wrong half :(
     
  8. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 20, 2004
    6,629
    9 by my accounting, but I may not be up to date on all transactions.
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,741
    Eleven it is.

    Marcel Massini
     
  10. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Thank you gentlemen.
     
  11. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2004
    6,707
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    Great post, its posts like these which make Fchat so exceptional. Thanks for sharing your LM experience.
     
  12. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2004
    6,707
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    I wonder what a certain green 250 LM would be worth considering its unique provenance and one owner status....
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,741
    There isn't much genuine 250 LM left on that one. Over all these years it has been extremely modified. And it has had more than just one owner. NOT a one owner LM.

    Marcel Massini
     
  14. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Wow. Was the SWB a comp or steel car? How does the SWB steel car drive? Is it as good as everyone says? Also how does the 250 MM drive? I heard it drives super even though it is a mid -1950s car!

    Best Edmond
     
  15. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    33,014
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    Is 6045 owned by DK?
     
  16. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    33,014
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    Any in Illinois by chance? I know of the one in the Indianapolis museum.
     
  17. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

    Feb 26, 2006
    6,047
    United Kingdom
    #42 thepinkumbrella, Jun 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    2014? As well as the repro body (Bachelli&Villa) and the repro chassis (Vaccari&Bosi)? Works replica with Classiche blessing?
     
  19. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    Thank you and very interesting! What does 6045/2 mean? Stamping from 1964? Did the stamping change?
     
  20. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281

    (Personal opinion only ) Classiche blessed, no original alloy ID Tag existent, (must have melted in the fire or was kept by one of the various owners of the salvaged fire damaged hulk?) total all new, bitsa replica of a no race history (Fire burned cut off back of chassis) car with original engine restamped by the Classiche gods with a very complicated conflicting story from all players involved in its past and recent history etc.

    The really interesting question is there going to be a somebody uninformed (read naive) enough to pay the big bucks needed to bail the real owner/financier Luay Allawi out of the 1.4 + mil paid for the Freshman car (which incidentally seems according to Freshman to have had the original frame tube from the fire burned car containing the original chassis stamp plate(not the alloy ID tag) incorporated into the rest of the chassis Freshman constructed in his shop (during the time he currently owned LM 6313 sitting alongside) out of the proper metric sized tubing he sourced in Italy (contrary to the press publicity spin of the current vendors) along with the original oil tank steering rack, suspension, etc. he collected form various sources.) + the millions he (Allawi) invested to buy the Gary Snell replica, restore it, then have DK take both to Classiche for them to combine the two in to one, bless it and cover the relevant Baksheesh fees to all. Put on the popcorn and pull up a chair, should be entertaining.
     
  21. davidMo

    davidMo Rookie

    Jun 11, 2012
    19
    Full Name:
    David Moses

    I was interested to read this thread as I was most fortunate to attend a very interesting seminar at cavallino Classic in January about this very car.

    The presentation was very thorough and afterwards the presenters talked through the history with us. It was jolly interesting and I was amazed at the size of the book they have written on the car and indeed how thorough it is. I think you would have a very different opinion now had you been there.

    I checked my pictures, the engine is not restamped by classiche? The picture of “6045/2” is the spare engine that was fitted to the car for many years (actually a late LM or 250P I believe but restamped in the 80’s). But now the car has its matching numbers engine in it. The engine in the 6045 is the matching numbers item and has not been changed at all or restamped by classiche.

    Classiche did obviously replace the tag in the front compartment, but I think you would be surprised how many cars of this era have this renewed at restoration.

    The lecture at Cavallino helped me understand that for many years two parties wanted to say their car was better than the other, but now only one party has (or had until Ferrari destroyed the replica last year!!) both the replica and the real car and all the parts are together now with the engine back in the car so it really is a great car again. The original body (albeit burnt remains) are also with the car now. I also saw the pictures of the frame of the original 6045 in Italy pre restoration in the 1980’s; these pictures were only provided by the then owner in the last few years and I have to tell you they really do show how minor the amount of chassis frame that was cut off was…. I recall that Ferrari did a calculation and it is something less than 10% of the chassis frame was cut off, right at the rear.

    You mention 6313 – or do you mean 6023? Because these cars have had their identity swapped.. why? Because the tube with the chassis number on was modified to be removable for easy engine changes and somewhere these cars got confused. This tube mod is really common on LM’s. Ron Kellog must have cut this tube out to remove the engine when he separated it from 6045 in the early 1970’s… he was then a very naughty man and sold it to freshman who, with the engine, built a complete replica – which has now been destroyed!

    Also it is interesting to note what you write about “Italian sourced” tubing. The tests carried out when both cars were together proved that the steel in the freshman replica was not of European origin because of the metallurgy… so who made that lie up? Someone trying to make their replica a more accurate composition than it deserved would be my guess, perhaps someone who owned it – I would do the same! But metallurgy tests do not lie.

    I really enjoyed that lecture, very interesting. Hopefully we can have another like it next year that is equally as interesting!!

    I hope 6045 does well, it is so nice that someone has gone to the effort to really put it right again. Whatever it makes it will look cheap against that GTO!

    DM.
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I think the "Italian sourced" metric tubing, would have originated in Russia??
     
  23. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    Loved that pic taken at Sal DiNatale's S&A Italia Sport Cars, where we all used to hang out and wait for Sal to get around to actually working on our cars. The guy in the white shirt appears to be Jimmy, Sal's son. 6045 is shown with Hart Isaacs' extra set of (chrome) wheels, which I bought from him when I repurchased 5909 from the Lola freak with no wheels, and after 6045 had gone to Ferrari heaven. Don't know whose LM is next to 6045; maybe Steve Earle's? Mine? As I said to Jayne Mansfield, "ya seen two, ya seen em all."
     
  24. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    John!
    Love that pic. I believe we are seeing a Maserati mistral parked next in line as well.
     
  25. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,677
    Would the "THEN OWNER" happen to have been the same Ron Kellog? (i.e. maybe he took pictures of the chassis prior to selling some of the surviving bits to the late Massimo Colombo in the 1980s). Or did these period pics possibly come later into the possession of another ex-owner (i.e. Gary Snell?)
     

Share This Page