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250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    Oh lord. Here we go with the theoretical conspiracy talk. So it was all smoke and mirrors? Someone just got fooled to spend millions? That’s one dumb sucker. Come one. And, how much of a car needs to be original to qualify as real? I’m serious. 20%? 80%? Who’s to be believed?
     
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  2. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Theoretical conspiraracy? Dont ask our good Lord but just Ferrari about their Red Book blessing of a new frame and see above Roush and Niles. Not 20% but 0% what certainly qualifies for a works replica. Is that so hard to understand? And: Who exactly paid what becoming a dumb sucker?
     
  3. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    You and your buddy “babci” have spent a good deal of your time to discredit this cars legitimacy, so much so that you refute the work and reputation of a premier auction house, those engaged in the cars restoration and Ferrari itself. You actually create an accusation that the sale didn’t even happen and that it was all made up. One could almost conclude that people who do so have had a jilted stake in the cars worthy outcome. Does the legitimacy of this car somehow infringe on the value of cars you own? Did you try to unsuccessfully acquire it at one point? Or, did Classiche refuse to certify one of your cars for some reason? Maybe you own many cars or non (I honestly don’t know). Just curious.
     
  4. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    One thing is certain, it isn't a, "no stories" car. :)

    Personally I think it's fine to resurrect cars like that.
     
  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823

    Most, if not all cars (particularly cars with racing pedigree) from that era have originality issues (especially 250 LM's). Allegations of fraud, pay-offs, collusion and high-level misrepresentation, particularity considering who and what's involved should not be made with such a cavalier attitude. They talk about the car as if it was restored in some back alley chop shop in Algeria and sold on the black market.
     
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  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    "And: Who exactly paid what becoming a dumb sucker?"

    I suppose this was all filmed on a Hollywood sound stage and these are all actors? Please Man didn't land on the moon either.

     
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  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
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    Steven Robertson
    Wrong video. This is 6105, not 6045.
     
  8. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    My mistake. Copied the wrong link. Here it is:



     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Pure nonesense. The sale did’t even happen? Absurd. Don't speculate but simply explain, what "as-new" frame is actually in the car, if the deal was real and what price got really paid. No more no less. And please remember, that no sales video or any conspirancy but only LM-heritage for posterity and the history of an important car are the relevant issues here.
     
  10. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    I'm not going to comment any further beyond this post. It doesn't do the effort to restore this car its true justice.

    Of course the sale happened. It's a great car. From everything I read (aside from you and two others crying about it) the car was painstakingly restored with as many original materials and components as possible. It was a detailed effort to arrange and marry previously separated elements and it was further validated by Ferrari Classiche (which, sorry to tell you and the other Classiche haters, matters a lot). The car was presented and awarded at the Cavallino Classic and discussed at length at a dedicated seminar by a highly credible panel. As I understand it, today it lives in Texas with its proud owner, who I assume doesn't appreciate the outlandish conspiracy theories about the car somehow being illegitimate and an elaborate hoax. And, by the way, the owner has every right to remain private. For the sake of posterity and the history of an important car, you should be happy it exists.
     
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  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Well put my friend
     
  12. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Quite ok if you don't comment any further. But unfortunately you still missed to explain what frame is in the car and got Classiche blessed. It's a great car and who should not be happy that this creation exists, but LM-heritage and posterity is entitled to know what it really is. Sadly, it disappeared after the auction although many would like to see it in action.
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Classiche haters? Well put? Do you really think so?

    Classiche resurrected from the ashes a car that Roush identified in period as the “only confirmed case of an LM being destroyed”. This very creation disappeared right after the auction and was not seen in public any more. Although considerable promotion got generated before and after, nobody was able to document what “as-new” frame (auction catalogue) Classiche did Red Book certify. I first saw some ‘6045’ at Visioli’s in the early Nineties with a wonderful all new frame (that later got confiscated from the police upon Montezemolo's intervention and Visioli arrested). And around 2012 Baccheli’s showed a friend and prominent Ferrari collector another all new ‘6045’ frame foreseen for Classiche’s ongoing reconstruction. And yes, Classiche as a fast growing profit centre follows clearly in some cases more commercial then historic goals what some do not really like. But ‘Classiche haters’? Well put? What a nonsense.

    Hence, neither a compilation of hearsay nor naïve acclamation make any sense but simply details about the car’s real substance and about what frame is today in ‘6045’. And finally, pictures of the unpainted chassis before Classiche’s assembly could answer all questions.
     
  14. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    So you KEEP saying/claiming/theorizing/stating or however you want to put it. Do you think a single person that has ever read this thread does not know your (and Schlessers) position on 6045. Some would suggest that since you have made yourself clear on the subject, perhaps leave it for either further discussion or more information comes to light. Entirely up to you though.......
     
  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Your acclamation to the remark that some posters are 'Classiche haters' is unreplied as well the acclamated issue that Classiche and Red Book validation provide definitive blessing and that any discussion after is just conspiracy and an 'elaborate hoax'. Is this your approach for 'further discussion' and to bring more information to light?
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Since I wasn't part of the Classiche process I have no answers, so I can no further discuss what happened during that process than I can discuss whether a fish can ride a bicycle. ONLY Ferrari Classiche, the owner, RM and possibly DK Engineering know what occurred during that process and IF you want answers I would suggest you discuss it with those participants. Alternatively you could wait for further information to come to light but again that is entirely up to you. Best of luck.
     
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  17. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    Nonsense. Classiche, RM or DK answer nothing. You simply sidestep and do not answer. Your multiple acclamations to the remark that some posters are ‘Classiche haters’ is the very issue and not the balony that you were not part of the Classiche process and cannot answer. Better luck with further acclamation and let’s return to ‘6045’ and wait.
     
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  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    When people criticise Classiche for something then it comes down to whether it is a factual argument or simple opinion. Now if it is factual, fair enough since they are not perfect, if it is simple opinion and the person providing it has stated that they hate/are unhappy with/dislike or whatever then Rossocorsa1 was correct that they are simply put "Classiche haters".

    How am I bad for admitting/stating/being open and honest in saying I have zero/nada/no/zip answers or insider info on #6045?

    If you want the entire thread to be between you and Schlesser, just say.....
     
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  19. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    No crime in your opinion. I agree with it.

    Classiche is a great service, particularly for owners of cars from the 70’s on up. For vintage cars, it seems to be a case by case situation, depending on who’s involved, what records exist, etc. There is no denying that there is a camp that just hates Classiche. They are quit vocal on here.

    As for 6045, I think it’s stunning and from everything I’ve read, the credibility of all those involved, and those who have analyzed its history and restoration (such as the panel from the Cavallino Classic), seems to tip it strongly in its favor. After all, many of these cars were parsed together over time. I’m sure there are some that can’t be satisfied, so let the silly debate rage on.
     
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  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    488
    After more than 76100 clicks do you still feel, that this is just a hoax and private tread of a few ‘Classiche haters’ without factual arguments and no interest for LM-history? Just say ...
     
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  21. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    Is this s/n 6045? I'm sure he says so but I can't understand. Thank you.

     
  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,531
    He says it is number 4 of all 250 LM's built.
    It is 5845, the only 250 LM in Argentina, it is owned by Mr. PC since many years.

    Marcel Massini
     
  23. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    Thank you
     
  24. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    3,823
    Does anyone know the current status of 6045? Is it still in Texas? Would love if the owner would bring it to Cavallino again.
     
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