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250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Will be interesting to see what it sells for, but I think originality matters more to us than potential buyers with deep pockets ...

    Pete
     
  2. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    493
    +1

    However, it will be interesting to learn how the market values #6105 as a genuine car, that was sold in 2014 – according to Barchetta – for USD 18,5M compared to two recently sold Classiche certified replicas (#6045 *sold* 12/2014 for USD 11.55 and #5899 sold 1/2015 for USD 9.625). In other words: Today, how does the market estimate newly built, non period original cars with a Classiche Certificate, compared to a genuine car with period original chassis, undisputed and unbroken history and all correct period numbers? And yes, #6105 is an impeccable car and the real thing.
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    I think the biggest factor is timing, ie. How often does a LM come up for sale, and if we have a couple of big players cashed up and keen, the sale will benefit.

    Returning to this car, while not 100% original it has only suffered a nose replacement (I think) so pretty damn good for an LM, BUT it has pretty boring race history IMO. No big circuit race wins ...

    The big bucks are related to race history IMO. The Le Mans winner would probably be the highest selling car of all time!
    Pete
     
  4. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    48
    Now we know that originality definitely matters!

    17.6 million, if I am right. To be honest I expected more, because of its unusual grade of originality and with the "Monterey-bonus". But that's a new record for LMs!

    Does anyone know the estimate on this car? RM didn't write it in the description.
     
  5. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
    6,670
  6. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #281 babci, Oct 31, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2015
    Nice editorial promotional effort but too much of the really interesting back story of unanswered, unproven documentation history as already discussed in this thread omitted, just a few examples: Section of the back of the original chassis cut off after fire, many original parts separated and later incorporated in "Fossil Motorsports/Freshman reconstruction, questionable heat damage to original chassis from original fire, no certifiable documentation to support content originality of the current chassis after fire, first restoration, and subsequent DK and Classiche re-restorations/re manufacturing etc., etc,. But thanks for posting.
     
  7. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
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    :)
     
  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    493
    Thank you, elegantly put to the point! The article is really nice, but the back story very interesting as well. In a nutshell:

    After the heavy fire and the car’s insurance write off, Freshman rebuilt the car with a *new* body and frame, using the car‘s *original* chassis number tag and tube, the *original* engine and other reusable *original* components. Beautiful dark red car. Remnants of the naked and numberless *original* frame shipped to Italy in order to be rebuild. Instead, Cantelli made a *new* frame, Bacchelli a *new* body and Visioli assembled a not less beautiful car with 250 bits and pieces. This ‘Non’ Freshman car got confiscated from the Modena Court as a replica and Visioli arrested. Whereabouts of the original frame are unknown today. When Ferrari lost interest, the ‘Non’ Freshman car got released, multiple restored and was finally owned from DK/Cottingham, who also bought the Freshman car in order to reunite both cars and get a Classiche Certificate. 2012/3, Classiche let build a *new* frame, a *new* body and used the original engine and tag. This very car got certified as 6045 and the rest of both cars destroyed under Ferrari’s supervision.

    There should exist an ‚extremly well documented file‘ about the Classiche rebuild. I especially like the most beautiful clip (Ferrari 250 LM #6045 by DKTV - Part 2 - The Test Drive - YouTube), but pictures of the certified car’s - unpainted - chassis just before Classiche’s assembly could help more and would easily answer the relevant questions. 2014, the car was sold from RM for 11.5 Mio (… if the deal was real) and I wonder upon the article, if today the car is again with DK in England?
     
  9. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

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  10. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

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  11. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    "This is interesting.."


    Agreed. More than interesting as the real new Classiched 6045 story just gets better and more opaque as in the words of Herman Hupfelds 1931 classic song "As Time Goes By"

    Can hardly wait until someone eventually shows up with photo's of the latest Classiche'd current #6045 versions new chassis that reputedly (rumor) was being built during their stewardship, "Restoration" etc. while turning the Freshman and DK assemblages into the presently existing Maranello Holy Lambrusco Water anointed "Red Book" version. In keeping with the season it should be a real Ho, Ho, Ho event. Happy Holidays to all. :)
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Remember how Ferrari/Italian's thinks about these things, as proven by previous cases. If they build a brand new #6045 it IS #6045 whether a previous #6045 exists or not.

    We find this difficult to understand but they think since they built the original they can do what they please, when they please.
    Pete
     
  13. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    +1 As incredulous as this sounds that is absolutely true.
     
  14. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula 3
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    This is so very unethical, but somehow they get away with it whenever they want to. It's just another form of B.S. revisionist history.
     
  15. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    +infinity
     
  16. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #291 babci, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
    Originally Posted by PSk
    "Remember how Ferrari/Italian's thinks about these things, as proven by previous cases. If they build a brand new #6045 it IS #6045 whether a previous #6045 exists or not."

    "
     
  17. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    48
    What does that really change?

    It's not a car from 1964, but a works-replica made in 2012/13 with a classiche-certificate containing a falsified date of fabrication.
     
  18. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #293 babci, Jan 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
    +1000. Absolutely correct. It changes nothing in the real world of truth. The only change is in the feeble minds of all the Classiche fan boy wannabe believers.
     
  19. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
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    #294 Schlesser, Apr 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Roush had it absolutely correct. I knew Hart and the others.
     
  21. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    +1 Nice work
     
  22. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #297 babci, Apr 8, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
    Many thanks for the confirmation of what has been debated forever and always been suspected by many here. We are lucky to have a few eye witness survivors from the time still around with no horse in the race who can recall and are brave enough to post and attest to the truth.
     
  23. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
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    Any news about 6045's whereabouts? How can a car completely disappear?
     
  24. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
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    It's in the Southern USA.
     
  25. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    48
    Is that all we know? No events? No pictures? No 'proof of its existence'?
     

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