News

250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    RM nor DK do claim, that the gearbox is car original. But after the Classiche restauration it broke during the video clip production for the RM auction and DK was looking all over the globe for a replacement.
     
  2. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Just an outstanding and beautiful car! I love the dark red colour.

    First I felt, that the *non* Freshman car is shown (before the Classiche restauration and already with the changed original tag bar/chassis number). But in the meantime I am not sure, if not the Freshman car is the one in the clip (as well as on some pictures of DK’s website). And Schlesser, you nailed it with the multi 6045 salad on DK’s website! But maybe there are some experts around, who can distinguish all the pictured cars. Or perhaps Michael Shoen, who owned the Freshman car, can identify it?

    I feel as well, that the tag shield with the chassis number shown in the clip and the one on the certified car (post 157, picture 3) are very similar, but not identic. But one thing is sure: if the showed car really got destroyed (and replaced from the certified works replica), it’s a shame.
     
  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    The two pictures show the bare remains of the burnt wreck. Place and date are unknown. Before, Ron Kellog and others had removed all the functional and saleable running gear, the original tag bar and all other usable bits and pieces. All these items were mainly used in the Freshman-car. Six years later, the remaining and numberless rest of this frame was taken over from Charles Betz/Fred Peters from Vector Industries. But in the US, this frame could not be sold and was brought to Italy. But even in Italy they did not repair such a wreck and finally the remains got “cleaned up” and replaced with a new frame. This could be done for little money, in high quality and with period material. Today, nothing is original on #6045’s frame *except* the tag bar and its Classiche Certificate.
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Reference please for the sentence I've highlighted in red.

    I assume you have not had much to do with restoring true vintage cars (English terminology, not just any non-new car as the Americans use the term), ie. 1919 to 1930. That frame just needs a sand blast and will likely be fine. There are many true vintage cars that have been restored after being pulled out of swamps and now driving around to shows and functioning perfectly fine.

    Plus compared to say a Lotus a 250LM frame is a massive thing :).
    Pete
     
  5. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Advert Ron Kellogs: "A real do it yourself LM. Not an easy job. ... Help me clean up my garage" (FOC Newsletter 3/73). Sandblasting and perfectly fine, are you serious?
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Yes it is just covered in surface rust so it looks a lot worse than it is. Brand new hot rolled steel is often covered in surface rust and there is no structural implications at all.

    Yes this chassis was involved in an accident and resulting fire, but the fire like many race cars of the period melted some of the bodywork. Yes it takes some heat to do that, but remember the alloy is very thing and some of the bodywork survived.

    We need to remember that a car, even a 250LM, is just made of steel, aluminium, rubber and glass. It is not a living organism. As long as all components are structurally sound a little surface rust is not going to hurt them.
    Pete
    ps: If you want to see some photos of serious rust, I can share some of my Alfa Romeo 1750GTV that I am restoring. Yes I've had to replace a fair bit to due to the components being eaten away but I have also replaced some metal that others have considered just pitted and still perfectly fine ... but yes I don't like rust thanks.
     
  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    No rusty GTV chassis can be compared with a burnt, bent and leaking LM chassis with its integrated and destroyed water and oil tubes. Completely different league and problem.

    The relevant question remains: What chassis did Classiche in use in 2012/3 for 6045's restauration? A completely new repro chassis made 2012/3? If not, please provide no expert praying or naive drawings of the seller, but pictures of the unpainted chassis before assembly. This should be easily available upon all the expert checks and certificates over many years, the "massive documentation" and the seller's extensive seminars about the car's "unbroken history".

    Anyhow, I really look forward to see the car soon in action. For sure, it's a beautiful creation. Does anybody know, where it is and where it can be seen in the next season?
     
  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    #258 PSk, Nov 19, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
    I believe if we had a copy of the selling documentation we would be convinced it was the original ... well some of us at least.
    Lucky you :).
    Pete
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Have you seen the Selling Documentation or the Classiche Certificate? I would much appreciate having a look! Idealism and philantropy is really a good thing, but in 6045's case the picture of its unpainted frame would probably help more and is much easier to supply.
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    There is a photo of the selling documentation, or at least one/two pages of it, in this thread (Sales document). That is all I have seen.
    Pete
     
  11. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    #261 Schlesser, Dec 9, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afxz6OiI0AQ]Ferrari 250 LM #6045 by DKTV - Part 2 - The Test Drive - YouTube[/ame]

    Fantastic video of 6045! This is the way it should be driven! It looks to me like Millbrook Proving Ground? Is this the Freshman car?

    Michael Shoen confirmed, that it was dark red amd had no additional rollbar, when he owned it.
     
  12. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    #262 lgs, Dec 12, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
    What a wonderful car and colour … and what a beautiful clip! Right Schlesser, this is the way it should be driven! No rollbar and most probably the Freshman car. As known, DK’s site is unclear. There seems to be a mix and probably both cars are pictured (DK Engineering - Restoration - Ferrari 250 LM). Even if this guess is wrong, Classiche used in 2012/3 - after DK’s last restauration - a brand new chassis and a brand new body for its ‘final’ rebuilt and certification. All the rest was destroyed and the most beautiful car in the clip is simply no more.

    Today, there is a certified works replica without any car original period parts and in a “better than new” shape, but with a “lengthy and detailed history file” that “must be fascinating to read as few automobiles have survived such a fraught and convoluted history.” And of course it will be interesting to learn, what “intriguing tale” the new owner will tell, if the car should appear, what we all hope will happen soon (Lot 150: Ferraris Sold at Auction in 2014).
     
  13. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    +1 and undoubtedly a more than charitable description.
     
  14. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    Are we still hoping or did I miss something?

    Because the only thing to make this story worse in my eyes would be if the new car would be hidden away in a collection and we wouldn't be able to enjoy the sights of the wonderful beast!
     
  15. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Once on a very rare occasion will a restoration be one that brings back something representing "the original". How unfortunate this is.One that comes to mind is the Admiral's 0562. Have a look, see how it was done and enjoy the moment. There aren't many restorations done this way.I am sure there will be others brought up here.Bring them on. tongascrew
     
  16. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,709
    Santa Fe, NM
    Thank you for the compliment, George; but we have 0556(0446)MD and not 0562 (the Ascari death car).
     
  17. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Sorry for the error.I am really getting as they say "a bit milky in the filbert". I really should not have done this. After all I have a file of exactly 90 pages on your car.It,your car, really is an extraordinary achievement. I must have almost every F Chat post etc.I have files on 1182 Ferraris starting with 01C. I will mix them up on occasion.If you get a chance send me a few of you favorite pictures and if you wish a few of your favorite stories to tongascrew@aol.com.Thanks tongascrew
     
  18. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Sorry for the error.I am really getting as they say "a bit milky in the filbert". I really should not have done this. After all I have a file of exactly 90 pages on your car.It,your car, really is an extraordinary achievement. I must have almost every F Chat post etc.I have files on 1182 Ferraris starting with 01C. I will mix them up on occasion.If you get a chance send me a few of you favorite pictures and if you wish a few of your favorite stories to tongascrew@aol.com.Thanks George
     
  19. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    Rumour has it, that 6045 was still sold before the auction and the event was just a pony show.
    Can anyone confirm that?
     
  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Really sold? However, disappeared since but let’s hope to see the car in action soon. In Texas/San Antonio or Dallas today? Any information about a race or concourse entry?
     
  21. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    Highly probable as many other things just don't seem to add up and it will undoubtedly take some time before the truth surfaces but it eventually will. We all have to just be patient.
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Welcome back! Any information, if the car can be seen in public in the coming season?
     
  23. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    Anyone else see the latest amusing Ferrari Market Letter parts add for the original set of carburetors off # 6045 engine? Opinions?
     
  24. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281

    Thanks I had missed it. Interesting. Accordingly to reliable rumor they have some other LM#6045 original parts still in hand.
     
  25. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    There is another LM crossing the auction-block at Monterey this year.

    Thinking of 6045's lack of originality this one could even triple its price? What do you think?

    1964 Ferrari 250 LM by Scaglietti | Monterey 2015 | RM Sotheby's

    Having the current bubble in mind I've been amazed when I noticed, that the most expensive public sold LM was 6107 sold at RM's New York auction in 2013!
     

Share This Page