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250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by davebuchner, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Babci and lgs,

    I read the above as saying the Freshman's car is a better continuation of #6045 because lgs is saying that the non-Freshman's car is closer to a Joe Blogg's replica, which implies it has no original parts. Hence my comment:
    Regarding documentation of the non-Freshman car, I won't repeat what I already said again but end by saying that the documentation we know is there, because we have seen a photo of it, and it is simply not being shared on this site. There is no reason for it to be shared on this chat site after all as none of us have any financial interest in this car.
    Pete
     
  2. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    No. 1991/2 new chassis and new body photographed at Bastiglia and seen at Visautofficina.

    2012/3 *another* new chassis (unpainted and freshly welded) and *another* new body seen at Bastiglia. Dark red/amarante body kept separately on a light frame.

    May be somebody is kind enough to provide some pictures from Cavallino's detailed 6045 seminar/lecture/documentation, showing the unpainted "as-new" chassis before the recent Classiche assembly?

    And yes, let's see and enjoy the car soon on track and may be it can be cleared before, what it really is.

    And no, I have never seen the Freshman car but learnt from Michael Shoen, that it was a jewel of a car.
     
  3. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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    #228 babci, Aug 25, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
    "Regarding documentation of the non-Freshman car, I won't repeat what I already said again but end by saying that the documentation we know is there, because we have seen a photo of it, and it is simply not being shared on this site. There is no reason for it to be shared on this chat site after all as none of us have any financial interest in this car."

    Unfortunately the photo "we" saw is taken from the vendors with a financial interest in the out come of the sale marketing book and provides no clarity or relates to the question at hand as to what exact part of those trashed remains were actually used in reconstructing the remaining what is it 6045. Further it is only a photo of the trashed remains and since this threads subject is and has been about the various originality merits of the remaining 6045 it is more than relevant that for anyone making statements here supporting the original chassis contents used during the repair history which includes Marcel should have included the proof of such documentation to support their position.

    I regret I have to repeat to point out that since there has never been any documented proof presented here to support the claim of original repaired chassis position or properly show that lgs photo and statement regarding what he saw was not the potentially new chassis car that is now being represented as the remaining 6045 it is more than fair to lgs may be right and it could have been.

    "As I said Symbolic Motors and Marcel believe otherwise and that the non-Freshman car contained not a new chassis but a restored original chassis."

    It should not be overlooked that Symbolic was a finically motivated vendor

    "because we have seen a photo of it, and it is simply not being shared on this site."

    Please provide the proof from said Symbolic Motors story or have Marcel provide the documented proof of the original fire damaged chassis content materials used in the current remaining 6045 other than a "Vacarri" invoice copy(never shown here) if he can to back up your statement Otherwise what you say is merely more speculation here to as what actually occurred in the day.

    "Maybe you saw the restored frame being bodied with a new shell?"

    Maybe what lgs saw in the day was the current remaining 6045 reconstruction with the new Almec/Cantelli chassis incorporated in it that has artfully undergone patination to make it appear as an old repaired original. IMO since he bothered to take and provide the picture he did I tend to believe that he knew what he says he saw.

    Maybe what Marcel saw were pictures or the new Almec/Cantelli chassis that had artfully undergone patination or maybe what car Marcel inspected years later at DK contained the new Almec/Cantelli chassis that had artfully undergone patination to make it appear as the old repaired original back in the day when it was first reconstructed. All is "MAYBE" possible.

    "I think what is happening is that you both have seen Freshman's #6045 and formed an attachment and are understandably disappointed."

    You are certainly entitled to you opinion about what you think we may be thinking. However speaking for myself I can say what you are thinking is pure fantasizing. I am not disappointed one bit about the outcome of the entire situation regarding the two cars being combined to produce some sort of remaining car with vague history it. It was the best of the possible outcomes considering the alternatives. What I do find incredulous is the $11,550,000 paid(if true)for such a "bitsa" history car when there were so many better examples of great Ferrari competition or street cars that were available to choose from that weekend and which were sold for less. Example 250MM, Two Series 1 Cabs, Alloy bodied 275GTB, F310 F1, Momo 333 SP, F1-2000, Two 4 cam GTBs, 312T3 F1, One off 250 SWB Aerodinamica etc. IMO any combination purchase for the same overall number the remaining "bitsa" 6045 made would have been a far better deal and certainly subject to much less risk of possible finical downside. Especially since the risk that the possibility definitely exists that some definitive proof showing that the current story regarding the " Vacarri" repaired original chassis content of the remaining 6045 is totally bogus could emerge in the future.
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Thank you for your always informative comments! But I stick with the details of post 204 and feel, that DK’s site always shows the same car in the correct time line. First DK-restauration 2009 for Silverstone: bright red/cina. Second DK-restauration 2011 (with the original engine): dark red/amarante. Finally raced in this shape in Goodwood and pictured in Octane.

    DK Engineering - Restoration - Ferrari 250 LM

    And during the following Classiche restauration 2012-14, the Almec/Cantelli chassis and the first Bacchelli body got replaced with a *new* Vaccari chassis and a new and *second* Bacchelli body, painted bright red/cina again. The first Bacchelli body (dark red/amarante) was kept and put at Bastiglia on a separate frame. The Freshman frame *and* the Almec/Cantelli chassis – allegedly – destroyed.

    The *car original* remains of the chassis were long gone and destroyed in Italy, because the fabrication of a new one (with period original material and tubes!) was clearly saver, easier and more profitable. And in order to avoid confiscation and jail in the late eighties/early nineties, the original remains could not be stored during Ferrari’s police vendetta against many restores (Fulvio Visioli, William Vaccari, Silvano Cantelli and others).

    LA TRUFFA DELLE FALSE FERRARI ' QUELLE ROSSE NON SONO VERE' - la Repubblica.it (“Dal numero di matricola del telaio di una Le Mans, perfettamente identica all' autentica" ... " ... frode all' economia nazionale … ")

    Upon this background, all relevant parts that created 6045’s checkered, but highly interesting history, are most probably destroyed and no more available.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Regarding the Symbolic Motors story I have tried to locate it. I thought I chatted with Bill Noon on this site about #6045 but I have been unable to find it. Maybe it was on the old version of this site?

    I therefore do not want to discuss any of that discussion as it would be by memory alone and currently unprovable which would not help you guys and this thread at all.
    Pete
     
  6. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281
    lgs you are more than welcome. Nice theory and defiantly a possibility. Will just have to wait to see what turns up in the future reagarding what actually happened in the early days of reconstruction after the fire. Are Visioli, Vacarri, Cantelli or any of the employes of Bacchelli from the time the first reconstruction was done that you could possibly get any information or documentation from?
     
  7. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    This doesn't work that way in Italy. Most of the restorers and their sons are in "Terra di Motori" suppliers of Classiche and not willing to provide any information that could interfere with Ferrari's position. But any mystery would easily find an end with a picture and details of the bare and unpainted chassis before Classiche's assembly in 2012/3.
     
  8. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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    lgs thanks for the enlightenment. To bad that it is that way in Italy but it makes sense that no one would want to PO Ferrari and risk their economic support. In any case I doubt Classiche would be willing to provide any information or let anyone to know they replaced the chassis. Hopefully you can uncover some pictures of the bare chassis and details of the reassembly at Classiche.
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    May be Cavallino's detailed seminar/lecture/documentation can provide more information and a picture of unpainted and finally used frame before assembly. The chassis is the key to everything and this thread got initiated from the car's marketing campaign (1964 Ferrari 250 LM by Scaglietti | Monterey 2014 | RM AUCTIONS). Of course, if a car is publicly claiming to be (and stay!) an important, original “1964 Ferrari LM 250 by Scaglietti” with period original (but "as-new") frame, such key issues are on the table and can't be answered with some naive drawings of the former restorer and vendor.
     
  10. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Would somebody care to explain how such metallurgical tests work? How much steel do you need and what can exactly be determined? And can you really prove non "European origin" of a steel?
     
  11. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    #236 lgs, Sep 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Ten years after 6045’s accident, all running gear as well as all aluminium body panels and the engine has been completely removed. 6045’s frame was badly bent, some rear portion removed and not a car or parts, but just the numberless remains of the frame were offered for sale. However, Vector Industries – although an established and well connected Ferrari specialists for Rebuilding and Restorations – were not motivated to restore it. And obviously this wreck was very hard to sell, although the vendor did not mention, that the car not only had an accident, but also caught fire and the body melted on the frame.

    Reparation of an LM chassis is generally a very difficult task. But when a chassis got bent as well as burnt and heath had an unknown impact, the task to restore it with all the integrated oil and water tubes is getting even more difficult. The needed work for 6045’s bent and leaking frame was simply disproportioned and the very reason in the eighties, not to finish the “do-it-yourself” job but to use a new one. This new chassis was built from Almec/Cantelli with the original tubes and methods of the sixties and the new frame was in every respect identic to an authentic one.

    LA TRUFFA DELLE FALSE FERRARI ' QUELLE ROSSE NON SONO VERE' - la Repubblica.it
    (“Dal numero di matricola del telaio di una Le Mans, perfettamente identica all' autentica" ... )

    Even if in 2011 a metallurgical test and a comparison with the chassis and 6045’s original tag bar was really made, the result would have shown no difference, because the steel of the tube was identic to the original. And today, an inspection of the finally used chassis would prove, that in 2012/3 a brand new frame was used again and Classiche produced a works replica.

    The auction is over and why coming back on this subject? Almost 12 M is a considerable amount and it’s hard to believe that the market really accepts such a price just upon a Certificate and doesn’t care about the car’s substance and history. If the deal was real, this is certainly not the way to go. If not, the market got massively manipulated from different kind of parties.
     
  13. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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    Bravo. My compliments again for obtaining and the subsequent posting of the Vector info and salient comments. From all appearances it sure seems that all the vending parties and "horse in the race" participants were in on it from day one if it was a manipulation. Not hard to guess why it may have been so in light of the big $ results they managed to achieve if those results are actually true.
     
  14. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    I am wondering all the way through this thread, which is BTW wonderful with high level discussion, if anyone has ever seen a picture of the car just after its accident? I am not sure, if I've just not seen the part of the thread. But wouldn't it be interesting to know, how heavy the damage really was?

    Apart from that, I go with lgs, that the Freshman car continued the life of 6045, because it had the chassis plate. And no, I do not agree that a car's identity is necessarily going with its chassis. I am thinking of one particular, non Ferrari-related, example: at SAAC1 there was a Ford Three-Window Coupe with a 427 Cobra chassis under it. Would you have called that car a Cobra or a Ford Three-Window?
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    The Freshman car had only one single tube of the original chassis that just happened to have the number on it ... so lets theorise here:
    If that is the case then **** me is all I can say.

    Returning to the non-theory world, both cars were used to create a single continuation of 6045 to resolve the debate once and for all :).
    Pete
    ps: And that other car was a rebodied Cobra.
     
  16. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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    Schlesser please see etiennes Post 157 ( page 8) of this thread for photos he took at Cavallino 2014 of the documentary marketing book prepared and presented by the vendors (DK) (see photos #1 and #6) of the supposed damaged remains taken may years after the fire with the back section cut off and the rest of it rusted. This was what was reputedly used in the reconstruction of the current remaining auctioned car. Copy the photos then enlarge them and draw your own conclusion as to what amount of usable structully sound material would have been left of the original crashed/fire damaged (fire hot enough to melt off most of the body) chassis that would have been able to be incorporated into chassis now claimed to be the original chassis.
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Not going to get into this again ... but you continue to make strongly opinionated comments with no supporting facts, ie. "hot enough to melt off most of the body". Note close to 1/3rd of the body survived as photographed in the sales manual.

    As I've said before so many of these cars and other race cars have had chassis' that have survived fires where the body was badly damaged because thin alloy panelling melts much, much earlier than steel.

    Anyway you keep at it if it makes you happy.
    Pete
     
  18. bitzman

    bitzman Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2008
    2,378
    I read through most of the thread but I lost the trail of the significance of the original gearbox. Was it made by Ferrari? Did that gearbox go with the original engine to the Freshman replica and later back to the "final" car (after the Freshman replica was bought and destroyed) ? I can see the return of the original engine to what I call the "final car" making the "original" more original than the engine that was in it, but how important is having the correct number gearbox to 6045? How much would that gearbox have cost if you had to buy it? I asked one mechanic in Europe and he guessed $100,000 back a few years ago but much more now.

    By the way this whole saga--end to end--reminds me a lot of the problem with Andy Warhol prints. The Warhol family did have a committee that pontificated on whether a print was an original Andy or not but their decisions were fought in court and finally they announced they no longer would make such rulings. The trouble was that Warhol's studio was called the "factory" for a reason--it was a factory producing art and many people there carried out his orders in creating art and could do it whether he was there or not, and some probably did it after leaving his employ.


    About the question, is the hot rod on a 427 Cobra chassis a hot rod or a Cobra, I say if the chassis number was in the CSX3000 chronology, then it is still a Cobra and could be rebodied as a Cobra (Mike McCluskey has rebodied many after crashes) so what body it is wearing at the moment is immaterial to its Cobraness, just as Marilyn Monroe was Marilyn Monroe no matter what dress she was wearing.
     
  19. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #244 babci, Oct 31, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
    As even you say and admit 1/3 burned off. To me that means 66% burned off (exposed to the 1220F degree temperature needed to melt aluminum) that's enough to = most of the body to say nothing about the crash stresses occurred at the time of the wreck or rusting thereafter compromising the structural integrity of the remaining trashed hulk was subjected to for years before supposedly being incorporated in to the reconstructed/restored? Classiched 6045 is enough to cast doubts in my opinion, however you are entitled to have your own opinion and post it as you see fit as I do mine. Additionally all I am saying if you read my post carefully was look at the photos provided and draw your own conclusion. As to proof or photos as asked by Schlesser no one has provided any proof/photos of the naked original exact chassis remains post the wreck/fire anywhere on the thread. Rock On.
     
  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496

    Yes, Schlesser (Joe Schlesser?), it is an interesting and very legitimate position to say that the Freshman-rebuild rightfully continued 6045's identity and was the original car, because in a relatively unbroken timeline *all* the *important* and *usable* components of the burnt wreck like chassis tag bar with the original chassis number and other original chassis components as well as the original engine were used and built-in in the Freshman-car. Freshman did the right thing: he used all functional original parts of 6045 and replaced the corrupt rest. The Freshman-car was for sure the better “continuation” and not less original then the today’s brand new works replica.
     
  21. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    Yes, Jo Schlesser. One of my all-time heroes!

    So there's only the description of the frame in the sale ad? What a pity, I would have liked to create my own opinion based on these pictures, but without them I still go with lgs. The degree of originality of the parts on the Freshman car is undoubted, as Shoen certified to me. All just my opinion based on this thread and on speaking to Mr. Shoen.


    Although the first Arntz replicas came in the mid-70s and SAAC1 was in 1976 I am pretty sure, it was an original Cobra chassis. But the chassis number has been removed, probably because it was a hot car. I spoke to Cobra experts who saw that car there and they all said, it's an original chassis. Soon after SAAC1 Karl Bullock bought it and rebuilt it as Cobra CSX 3150 (he guessed it is 3150, but soon after that the real 3150 surfaced in Australia) using the substructure of CSX2405, the first car Mike McCluskey rebodied as a Daytona for Lynn Park. (the substrucure of the leaf and the coil spring cars is the same) Sorry for OT...
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #247 PSk, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
    Why are we still debating the Freshman versus other car issue? ... there is only one car now and it has all the original components from both.

    So it does not matter what our opinions are any more. If you like both versions of #6045 had considerable replication, and now in this final certified single #6045 we have reduced the amount of replication as far as possible. Surely a good thing.
    Pete
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Not sure which sales ad you are referring to, but if the latest there are pictures of the original frame: Catalogue photos
    Pete
     
  24. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    496
    Gentlemen, #6045’s chassis and body did not survive. Again: around 1988/9 the burnt original chassis remains – without the original tag bar being already with the Freshman-car and the original engine – were fully replaced in Italy with a *first* replica chassis (Almec/Cantelli) and for this new frame the *first* Bachelli replica body was produced. The original numberless tubes (but the tag bar saved in the Freshman-car) were given up. Why not using the original wreck remains? Because it was saver and easier but over all cheaper to produce a new one. I have personally seen in period 6045 with this new frame near Cremona at Visautofficina.

    The *second* replica chassis, using the original tag bar from the Freshman car, was made in 2012/3 from Vaccari for the Classiche restauration and the subsequent blessing with another, the *second* Bachelli body. The drawings in this tread are an innocent promotion product of the seller (and two times restorer before the final Classiche rebuild). However, speculation about how much was really burnt is really useless, because there are no more original tubes today - *exept* - the tag bar. And again: if somebody claims something else, he should not produce naïve drawings and sales promotion of the vendor or more expert prayer, but a picture of the unpainted “as-new” chassis before Classiche’s assembly in 2012/3.

    Why disputing this? Because it might be of some interest for history, enthusiasts, concourses and races to know what “6045” really is when it – what we all hope - should show up.

    And yes, Schlesser, create your own opinion!
     
  25. Schlesser

    Schlesser Rookie

    Feb 12, 2013
    49
    Thank you lgs for letting me creating my own opinion. And thank you PSk for helping me doing that with the sales ad, that I have overseen in this thread. The chassis looks really rough. And even the parts they claim to be original are not too much... Just my 2 cents

    But does anyone know which 6045 this is? Freshman or 'the other car'? Or 'the other car' with original engine? It's a video out of DK's multi-6045 salad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NLUykyf08k&pxtry=2
     

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