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250 Le Mans 5899

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    #51 lgs, Jan 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
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  3. babci

    babci Formula Junior
    BANNED

    May 19, 2011
    281
    "But today, what chassis is in the car and has been classiched in 2005? This question is open"

    Thanks for letter but I was referring to the remaining RM car too. So the odor just gets more pungent for: One more Factory Baptized Anointed Replica and we shall see what the "OH BIG $ Dollar Happy Days For One And All" implications will be in just a few short days. In the over under contest I guess I'll take the over this time.
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Quote RM sales catalogue:

    "REVIVAL OF CHASSIS NUMBER 5899 GT

    ... It was Stewart who finally committed to bringing the car back to life in its original configuration. In 1977, he commissioned a restoration by Victor Norman and Bob Houghton’s Rosso Limited in Cirencester, England. To refit a proper 250 LM body, the original chassis was sent to Ferrari’s Assistenza Clienti in Modena and subsequently William Vaccari for restoration. The renewal was completed in May 1981 and Stewart got behind the wheel for the first time for a test drive at Goodwood shortly thereafter. ... "

    One thing is sure: no "original chassis" but a *brand new frame* was used 1977-81 for the car's rebuild. Ferrari officially states in the above letter (25.09.89), that c/n 5899 does not exist anymore and is eliminated in their files. And in 1977-81, no "original chassis was sent to Ferrari’s Assistenza Clienti in Modena and subsequently William Vaccari for restoration". Is this a serious description? And what should any prospective buyer think of the involved experts? And indeed: what chassis has been Red Book classiched and is offered now for an estimate of 9.5 million?
     
  5. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281

    "Is this a serious description?"

    The Big Checkbooks Vote will reveal the answer.

    "And what should any prospective buyer think of the involved experts?"

    IMHO nothing complementary.

    "what chassis has been Red Book classiched and is offered now for an estimate of 9.5 million?"

    Something Funkapotomus for sure.
     
  6. Schlesser

    Schlesser Karting

    Feb 12, 2013
    53
    Thank you lgs for the letters!
    Sadly my skills in Italian are close to zero. So would someone kindly translate the important sequences for us non-italian-speaking people? Thanks!
     
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  8. TheDuke

    TheDuke Formula 3
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    Jul 22, 2011
    1,938
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    Just sold with a hammer price of $8.75 million which is below the $9.5-12.5 million estimate
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Formula 3
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    Nov 9, 2003
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    I definitely thought it would go for more. prices are cool today
     
  10. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281
    #58 babci, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
    WELL WELL the vote is in. Just over the wire on the under with the comish. Big Whoopsala.

    THE # 6045 car worth 1.575 more. Yeah right.
     
  11. greg 19425

    greg 19425 Formula 3

    Jan 6, 2011
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    #59 greg 19425, Jan 17, 2015
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  13. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    3,617
    Though perhaps they'd be warmer were it the Indy Museum LM on offer?
     
  14. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281
    "Though perhaps they'd be warmer were it the Indy Museum LM on offer?"

    I would think so if weren't such a comical exercise try to compare the two. Were one to attempt to entertain the exercise, IMHO 15 to 25+ Mil more for #5893 might be appropriate against #5889 with it's complicated chassis originality with replica new body and parts background with good race history versus the first owner sold to the current owner, original bodied matching number #5893 LAST FERRARI TO WIN LE MANS 1ST OVERALL with a 7th and 9th at Daytona. In any case a definitive market confirmed determination will likely never materialize due to its present ownership.
     
  15. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281


    THE # 6045 car worth 1.925 more or 2 XL. Yeah even more right.
     
  16. rcraig

    rcraig F1 Rookie

    Dec 7, 2005
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    Thank you Pete- that is precisely what I was trying to say( not too successfully)
     
  17. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    5899 bought a fair price, after all all bidders would have known it had flawed provenance and so had the opportunity to research its actual makeup and history. The fact it bought what it did was a signal of a mature set of bidders that considered what you could do with it, what it is and what it could be worth in years to come. That result was what it sold for.
     
  18. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Wrong. There is another #5899 certified from Christian Huet.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Certified? Please explain, obviously not Red book certified.
    Pete
     
  20. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    Sorry, I can't. And I can neither explain a Red Book certification of a non existing chassis (Post 51: "Infine precisiamo che questo numero di telaio verrà registrato in nostro archivi come distrutto")
     
  21. 575

    575 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Nov 20, 2009
    3,791
    The translation of what you have posted says that " this chasis number WILL be registered in our archives as having been destroyed."

    I am splitting hairs but it does not say that "it is registered as destroyed"".

    Is it possible that events after this letter may have resulted in the chasis number not being registered as destroyed.?
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    #69 lgs, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
    I don't know. But when a chassis is destroyed ("distrutto"), it can't be certified.
     
  23. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
    281
    "Is it possible that events after this letter may have resulted in the chasis number not being registered as destroyed.?"

    Anything is possible. Semantics aside it seems oblivious that at the time of examination and when the letter was written the remaining chassis content was not significant enough for Ferrari to deem it to be repairable and it was to be archive noted as destroyed. Since that time period moving forward to the present day IMHO it has been demonstrated and become more than abundantly clear that if the original engine, a few bolts, chassis plate, or couple of tubes etc. (even if that those parts components, tubes etc. are heat, impact, or otherwise damaged or modified beyond their ability to be safely used) exist Cassiche has no issue/problem reconstructing the vehicle (or parts of it even if may those parts are reconstructed/re manufactured by outside contractors other than the original producer be it themselves or the no longer existing original company: example engine blocks heads etc) and then certifying the reconstructed/re manufactured results if the requesting party is willing to submit to Classiche's financial demands necessary to do so. Additionally it is apparent that the newly reconstructed, recreated object can realize a truly significant financial profit for the party undertaking such an exercise with Classiche when marketed whether it is factually warranted or not. That said the newly reconstructed object does not make that reconstructed remaining object to be anymore "The Period Produced Original Vehicle" etc. than George Washington's infamous axe.
     
  24. 575

    575 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 20, 2009
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    What you say may be correct , but what needs to be determined is weather or not that chassis number was ever registered as destroyed. Beyond that it is all speculation.
     
  25. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    +1, some positivity in these threads is a welcome change.
     
  26. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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    #73 babci, Jan 22, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
    "but what needs to be determined is weather or not that chassis number was ever registered as destroyed. Beyond that it is all speculation."

    It is highly unlikely to occur that the parties directly involved will ever disclose the actual factual definitive truth with the proof to back it up. The financial and legal implications are simply to large of a magnitude. Only time will tell if some independent entity not related to the vendor or Classiche comes forward with the definitive proof and publishes it here.
     
  27. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    It really does not matter any more. Now that Ferrari have said it's #5899 it is, right or not.

    They make brand new engines and stamp them with old numbers and no issues ...
    Pete
     
  28. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    May 19, 2011
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