News

250 GTO at no reserve at Quail - BONHAMS

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Onebugatti, Jun 30, 2014.

?

what will 250 GTO #3851 auction for at Bonhams' August 15?

  1. <= $20mm

  2. $25mm

  3. $30mm

  4. $35mm

  5. $40mm

  6. $45mm

  7. $50mm

  8. $55mm

  9. $60mm

  10. $65mm

  11. $70mm

  12. $75mm

  13. => $80mm

  14. no idea

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2010
    652
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Lord March, as he was at the time (I think) stated that they do not allow replicas at Goodwood. Therefore this must be the actual 3851GT with a revised front end, a respray and a quick change around of the pedals/steering wheel/wipers etc. There can be no other explanation!
     
  2. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    10,636
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    That does not seem to apply to the GT40s so maybe not here

    Meanwhile this GTo already needs some bodywork after being hit at the start of its race
     
  3. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,665
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    Considering Lord March drove a replica GTO as a course car before the start of the race that comment is highly amusing. Anyhow if the owner is known to have the real car, I doubt the scrutinneering does serious cheeks to confirm it is real providing it conforms to the spec of the car entered.
     
    Timmmmmmmmmmy likes this.
  4. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2010
    652
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Surely the most ardent of scrutineers would notice where the steering wheel was!

    There really has been a statement that replicas are not accepted at Goodwood! See the documentary about the Lightweight Jaguar E-Types.

    Having seen the Duke of Richmond (as he now is) say there are no replicas at Goodwood, I wonder how many of the people who pay to visit Goodwood House consider if Napoleon's chair, or the paintings by Stubbs, Canaletto et al are real or not?

    There are either replicas at Goodwood or there are not. I do not really care either way. Please, though, tell everyone which cars are real and which ones are not.

    I feel sorry for the guy who goes into work on Monday morning telling everyone about the amazing cars he has seen during his visit to Goodwood, only to be told he has not seen what he thinks he has.

    I believe, from the TV commentary, that a few years ago one of the children's pedal cars was excluded from the Settrington Cup as the position of the pedals had been changed to allow a taller child to pedal. The car was not original so it was excluded...
     
  5. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,554
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    I thought maybe Monteverde brought the car back to original spec, too bad. Could be his replica "for racing" but he wasn't even driving.... Was the other GTo on the grid a replica too?
     
    tomgt likes this.
  6. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    607
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    No. The other GTO on the grid was 4561SA.

    -Ed
     
    Timmmmmmmmmmy likes this.
  7. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,665
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    Not an expert but guess a taller child and moved pedals might give a performance advantage :)

    I agree they should be more transparent about it but as I said above it’s also on the owners to bring the car they say it is. I think the Kinrara was an attempt to address this as it is a race more for authentic than the TT which has become a race for hot rods now. Friend of mine pointed out the lap times at the TT are now some 6-10 seconds quicker than when the first Revival TT was run. The track hasn’t changed so it must be the cars. I guess they’ve not been completely successful although I believe the vast majority of cars in the Kinrara were real.

    As an aside I also noticed the Lotus Cortinas in the St Mary’s today were turning laps on a par with Pirro in the Breadvan last night!
     
  8. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    607
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    Been trying to match up the silver car with photos of known GTO replicas. I thought it might be s/n 7225 a while ago, but too many of the details are different (and actually look less original in places - so that arguably rules that one out).

    Anyone got any ideas?

    -Ed
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,565
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    41,449
    Texas!
    Ouch! I hope the driver survived.
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #337 miurasv, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
    He did not unfortunately. Henri Oreiller was said to have been impaled on the gearstick. I have read that the chassis of 3851 was replaced by the factory after this accident. Can anyone confirm?
     
  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    41,449
    Texas!
    By today's standards, these cars were (and still are) deathtraps. Frankly, not that it's an option, I would never race one of these cars.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #339 miurasv, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #340 miurasv, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
    Gary Pearson has raced 7225, a 330GT before. They could have changed the wing engine vents to two. It does have that high side window and flat rear screen look about it that 7225 has. Mind you quite a few replicas are like that.
     
  15. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    607
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    They've *definitely* changed the wing vents to two (what replica it's come from) - you can tell this from the position on the sides. They should be by the door shutlines but - bizarrely - they've evidently patched up the one nearest the door rather than nearest the nose.

    It might well be s/n 7225, but at least a few details must have been changed.
    1) On red car, the boot shape has a constant radius from the fuel filler cap. On the silver car, it's got a different profile.
    2) On red car, the side marker lights are far back on the wings and pointing down slightly. On the silver car, they are pointing forwards, are located closer to the nose, and have a deeper scallop profile.
    3) On red car, the rear glass has a cutout and plastic vent cover. On silver car, this is just flat glass with no holes.

    That said, the noses are VERY similar, in particular that flat, elongated grille, which is actually quite rare to find in exactly that shape.

    A few side-by-side shots below for comparison, NOT taken by me.

    -Ed

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2010
    652
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Not sure if this will help or add to the confusion! The pictures below show 7225 on 9 May 1993 when Gary Pearson raced the car at Silverstone. At this point there were only 2 wing vents.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Nearly every other picture online shows the car with 3 wing vents and it clearly gained the extra one in late 1993 or early 1994 before this happened:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    This from Autosport on 30 June 1994.

    The car still had 2 vents in September 93 as shown here (pictures much better than mine!):

    http://hyde1841.blogspot.com/2014/03/fridays-ferrari.html

    If the silver GTO replica at Goodwood is 7225 then the poor car has had a very hard life!
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Looks like an Allegretti body.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Has the real 3851 been painted in its original colour?
     
  19. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    607
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    My gut feeling was that it would have been, otherwise having this replica in the original colours (but not the real car) would seem bizarre.

    That said, I would think that if the car was getting a full restoration, the owner would probably have sent it back to Ferrari Classiche - and so far, this hasn't happened.

    -Ed
     
    miurasv likes this.
  20. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,309
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #346 miurasv, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
    Also seems odd that he didn't buy a LHD replica or get this one converted from RHD to LHD. Who did he think he'd fool with that? I don't get why he went to the trouble of painting it in 3851's original colours, put the 3851 licence plate on it then left it RHD.
     
  21. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
    607
    UK
    Full Name:
    Ed
    Perhaps the answer is that it was a deliberate effort not to fool experts - i.e. 'everyone knows 3851 is LHD, so obviously a RHD is not pretending to be real'. Or they just didn't care. Who knows. The position of those wing vents really is ridiculous - although of course that won't stop myriad people from the event telling me to shut up and that it was a '1:1 tool-room copy'. Yeah right.

    -Ed
     
    stevewak, Ferrari27 and miurasv like this.
  22. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2010
    652
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Has this car been seen anywhere, by anyone, since it sold at auction?

    It was, I believe, entered at the the Spa Classic last year but did not show up.
     
    miurasv likes this.
  23. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 5, 2010
    652
    Solihull, UK
    Full Name:
    Robert
    Whatever the identity of the silver car at Goodwood, it had a massive bump: more than just some new lights needed at the back. Look at the roof panel! Or did Someone climb up to take a photograph?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  24. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,554
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Doesn't Monteverde drive his cars, usually? Why would he enter a replica and not drive it?
     

Share This Page