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250 GTO at no reserve at Quail - BONHAMS

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Onebugatti, Jun 30, 2014.

?

what will 250 GTO #3851 auction for at Bonhams' August 15?

  1. <= $20mm

  2. $25mm

  3. $30mm

  4. $35mm

  5. $40mm

  6. $45mm

  7. $50mm

  8. $55mm

  9. $60mm

  10. $65mm

  11. $70mm

  12. $75mm

  13. => $80mm

  14. no idea

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  1. F142George

    F142George Karting
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    Well I think the problem with the car is that it did take a young racer's life with it during its multiple crashes. Karma is something many people take into consideration when buying a car so some would say that this particular car brings bad karma as discussed on some of the other threads regarding this car. Still 38mill is ALOT of money and only a countable few has upwards of 30 mill to spend on a single car.
     
  2. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    if you read kidston's article on the car in the latest scm, you will see he expected something like this. this particular car has had a checkered history, and been actively raced in the last 20 years.

    it has some period rebuilding from scrap, deaths, bad karma....then owned by an active user and racer and was rebuilt quite a bit during the recent history - engine and body.

    such that 50 years on, you have a car that may not contain more than 20pct of the original parts, would not pass classiche, and still has the bad karma association.

    so to get about 80% of the price of the last, and arguably perfect history, car, is pretty good.

    i would not be worried about the market that much.
     
  3. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    here is what i posted in the vintage section about the sale:
    if you read kidston's article on the car in the latest scm, you will see he expected something like this. this particular car has had a checkered history, and been actively raced in the last 20 years.

    it has some period rebuilding from scrap, deaths, bad karma....then owned by an active user and racer and was rebuilt quite a bit during the recent history - engine and body.

    such that 50 years on, you have a car that may not contain more than 20pct of the original parts, would not pass classiche, and still has the bad karma association.

    so to get about 80% of the price of the last, and arguably perfect history, car, is pretty good.

    i would not be worried about the market that much.
     
  4. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    I wonder if Bonhams/Louwman bought the GTO from the Violati heirs, or if they auctioned it in name of the heirs? In the first case I wonder if Bonhams/Louwman are in for a loss.

    Also, there were some tax issues clouding the Violati collection. Were these solved before the auction, or could the new GTO owner expect a knock on the door from the Italian IRS? Maybe that explains the lowish price?
     
  5. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    That's probably easily corrected for a fraction of the price. Just give it a nose job and it's certified! ;)
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Interesting, so a GTO that gave it's previous owner considerable fun and was used as it was designed, as so many wish these cars were, apparently suffers because of this on the market.

    Weird ... who gives a stuff if the engine has been rebuilt, etc. ? If you can afford one of these then you can afford to have the car constantly in a top notch workshop constantly being fettled so when you want a drive it runs perfectly. I have read that Nick Mason's one has had a few engine rebuilds too ...

    Plus I thought this car ran a 4 litre engine during it's recent racing days, so would not the original engine have been saved from this pleasurable work?

    If indeed this car has suffered a potential $15 million loss because it was used, lets just say nobody will see any more genuine GTO's driving around anymore because that is serious coin ... replica market is about to BOOM :(

    In the end the market and real classic car enthusiasm appear not really to mix as it aren't a classic/historic CAR if you cannot use it!
    Pete
     
  7. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
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    #282 Onebugatti, Aug 15, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
    Clearly the $52M is not the true benchmark for membership to this club now. Nor was it ever .

    The word bubble does not apply to this sale. Private sales are always involving trades, and pumping by brokers. Figure there were only two people bidding at this number, one didn't think the winning bid was good value. :(

    Clearly, it's less today and in dollars ( Yikes!) - back to reality.

    Was the $52M taunted paid privately ''out there'' the price for 250 GTO/64 - 5573 ?

    Will someone list the last FIVE of the GTOs sold and the prices ? Would be interested to see the graph with this latest sale - which is reality.
     
  8. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    and this would change your world how?

    These cars are artefacts history. Of course their value is influenced by how much they have drifted away from their history because of repairs, rebuilts etc. I'd much rather have a car that shows it's scars from competing in races during the sixties then a freshly restored car.
     
  9. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

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    Makes perfect sense.

    But these arguments should have been made BEFORE the sale to predict a price substancially lower than $50M.

    As it is, it looks like rationalization. Just as if the car had made $50M, or $70M, I suspect we would have found reasons for that too.
     
  10. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
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    A year ago the double taxation agreement between Italy and San Marino signifies that San Marino is off the "black list" of countries Italy considers to be tax havens. That stopped many Italians from buying the collection privately. The collection was not brokered for the family, it was sold outright. The price was always 110m E, tough as nails she was. The GTO was the wild card. There will be no knock on anyone's door and the price was predictable by the sellers, proven by the sale.
     
  11. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    110m Euro for the whole collection or for the ten bought by Bonhams/Louwman? How much did the ten lots sell for at auction in total? Anyone summed it up yet?

    Edit: saw it in the other thread: 66m $ for the ten lots combined.
     
  12. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    I don't think you or anyone else for that matter can draw this conclusion based upon the sale of one particular car with unfavorable history.

    Let's say a capable buyer wants a GTO with solid provenance. Do you think that person could go buy one for $38M just because this one traded at that price? Linder's fake F40 LM certainly isn't setting the benchmark for F40 sales in the same way 3851 isn't going to set the prices for GTOs.
     
  13. tilomagnet

    tilomagnet Formula Junior

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    Woohoo I guessed $35 MM lol. IMHO a relatively sensible price in today's crazy market. Certainly not a top tier GTO, this would have been a < $10 MM car only 6 -7 years ago.

    Hard to say if the "only GTO someone died in" Karma or the extensive rebuilding prevented more $$, but its probably more of the latter.
     
  14. IDriveM5

    IDriveM5 F1 Rookie

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    Interesting take Ross. I know absolutely nothing about Classic Ferrari's, so thank you for sharing your insight.
     
  15. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
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    Hi,
    What time is this live feed picking up again?
    Bonhams : Quail Lodge Auction - live
    It was GREAT to watch those first cars, including the GTO.

    And do you have live feeds for RM and others?
    Thanks,
     
  16. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

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    I've found that the sale continues friday 11am PST.
    Not sure if on same live link, but I hope so!

    I you guys have links to other Monterey live auction feeds, that would be great.
     
  17. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    simon wrote that article about a month ago....i think it was rather prescient
     
  18. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I get SCM but I misplaced my issue- is there a link to the article- I tried their website but could not locate it. Sorry for the trouble. Would just like to read it.
     
  19. mcimino

    mcimino Formula 3
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    #294 mcimino, Aug 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I reminded my wife when we were at Pebble in 2004 and 250 GTOs were starting to go for $11 million. She said: we couldn't afford one THEN and we can't afford one now. So it's no big deal. ;)
     
  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i have just been corrected by marcel in the vintage section who says that upon his inpsection, the car had basically original engine, transmission, and many body parts. so my 20pct quote is likely a lot higher. but history and karma dont change, and the market spoke for what they considered an inferior car to the previous sale of the tdf winner. fwiw.
     
  22. Rapalyea

    Rapalyea Formula 3

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    The URL includes a short video.

    "A 52-year-old Ferrari just smashed the record for the most expensive car ever sold at auction.

    The 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO, with a somewhat dark past, was just sold by Bonhams for $34.65 million. That blew away the previous record, held by a Mercedes-Benz racer that sold last summer for $31.6 million including auction fees.

    "The market right now is just so strong," said Marcel Massini, a leading Ferrari historian and adviser to collectors. "And this is one of the big prizes in the entire collecting world."

    Most expensive car ever auctioned is sold for $34.65 million
     
  23. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    The market is so strong.....it's due for a crash ;-)
     
  24. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
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    Yes, have a look at historical GTO prices it tells quite a story.
    Last year a one sold for 51Million, that's a big dip.
    Is the big money getting cold feet when it comes to investing in classic cars?
    The upside to the classic car bubble is that all these cars some if them previously unloved get a massive makeover because there is money to be had. That creates jobs for restoration houses and craftsmen etc. The downside is that you get these lovely cars owned by people who have absolutely no love for them along side the auction houses and dealers who's only interest is the bottom line.
    Part of me likes the Bubble, part of me hates it, both have an upside and a dowsnide.
     
  25. freestone

    freestone Formula Junior

    Feb 8, 2005
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    You just don't understand this market - these cars.

    He is absolutely thrilled with his car.
    No one who had the means to buy a great GTO wanted this one, even at a $20mm discount.
     

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