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Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Feb 6, 2020.
Ferrari after seeing the steering wheel.
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If it has been ruled legal, the question now is how easy and/or difficult is it to copy?
or firstly; exactly how much advantage does it provide and what if any negatives does this provide. And then asses do you need it/ can you incorporate it.
clever engineers will always come up with clever ideas and I’d say merc have the cleverest at the moment; Ferrari needs to step up their game!!!!
As somebody above said they had seen this on grass track racing; so it might be as simple as one of the engineers grass tracks and nobody at Ferrari does! But even still you have to connect the dots and see if it fits within the regs then access the pros and cons, and convince the boss to take a punt!
I would deem this as a moveable aero device as alters frontal area of tyre in the 2 positions
I agree, and I think that, in time, it will be banned after the other teams protest, at least for 2020.
Guys, if Ferrari wants to copy it, I believe it's relatively easy to do it. A slider or two for the steering hack, probably some some sort of mechanical spring and a damper perhaps... Yes, I'm being simplistic here but it doesn't seem to be rocket science.
But what if Merc is just playing a trick on Ferrari? What if doesn't bring any noticeble advantage but it's just a Toto Wolf plan to "let's make these Italian desperate and loose time by trying to copy it...".
Anyway, seems like too much of an emotional reaction from the tifosi of this forum.
Nobody would spend time and money if it was not legal or just to disconcert the rivals. Maybe in the end it won't work and they won't use it, but they are serious about this.
Yet, I still think it's ****ing ridiculous that FIA banned the mass damper because it was an aero device but think that this is legal because it's just part of the steering. I just can't get it.
It's classic FIA. Will allow this to stand for the year just like the mass damper when they won the championship for Renault, and by the time everyone replicates it - there comes the ban.
Can't bear these Sky Sports folks keep harping about how it helps keep tire temperatures. You change the toe on a straight inwards, the outwash effect on the front tires and wings is probably going to be order of magnitudes better. That along with the rear suspension redesign, this has changed the overall aero performance of the car very positively.
Agree re the mass damper-it was totally enclosed in the bodywork and was yet ruled an aero device and banned; MB will get a pass on this and it will be copied. Then when a failure occurs it will be banned on safety grounds. BTW if we had manual transmissions the driver wouldn't be able to manipulate the wheel so easily, if at all.
[Autobild] Red Bull thinks the DAS system is not legal: Helmut Marko: "If you actively change the toe of the wheels while driving, the contact surface of the tyres changes. And thus - even if in a very, very low range - the ground clearance."
Helmut Marko: "And this is prohibited because the system then corresponds to the operation of an active suspension which is not allowed."
A lateral load bearing suspension part of the car (the wheels and tires) is being manipulated by the driver while driving so that is illegal. Illegal!
End of day 2 results
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? The lateral load bearing suspension(the wheels and tires) is being manipulated by the driver without DAS
so looks like a slow and unreliable car as the lap count should be better
Definitely would like to see more laps. all this focus on DAS won't matter whatsoever if the SF1000 is running middle of the pack.
It’s is all of that
Good point. Teams should test the limits of the rules. But there's no escaping the political ramifications of doing that.
Rules are, "clarified." And too often those clarifications seem to be less than objectively applied.
Speaking as an engineer rather than as a Ferrari fan, the Mercedes DAS seems to be a brilliant innovation. Re the rules, it's a steering system, not a suspension system - the wheels are allowed to change steering angle. I'll leave the legalities to the FIA and inevitable protests.
Potential benefits - tire temperature has been mentioned, but tire wear will also be a factor. We can safely assume more toe-out is better for cornering speeds, and less toe-out is better for straight line speed. More toe-out will increase tire wear, so less toe-out on the straights should reduce tire wear.
I'm still thinking about tire temperature implications - again, more toe-out on the straights would cause more scrub, causing the increased tire wear vs. less toe-out, but that should also increase front tire temps... so less toe-out on the straights should decrease front tire temperatures. Perhaps this is a mechanism not just to reduce tire wear/scrub on the straights, but to allow the driver to easily affect tire temperatures. If the tire is too hot, reduce toe-out on the straights to get the tires running cooler. If the tire is too cool, say after a safety car period on worn tires, keep the higher toe-out on the straights to re-warm the front tires quicker.
Other potential factor - with the traditional non-movable steering rack and fixed toe, the fixed front toe angle is a compromise between better turn-in and cornering (assuming more toe-out is better), and less toe-out for reduced drag and wear on the straights impacting straight line speed. With the adjustable toe system, Mercedes could run more toe-out in the corners than they would with a fixed toe system for even better cornering performance, and less toe-out on the straights than they would with a fixed toe system for less tire wear, less tire mechanical scrub/drag for greater straight line speed, and less heat build up.
What’s that expression about grasping at straws!!
no offence but when where tyres classified as an aero device? They obviously have an effect, but they are not aero devices! Or are you implicating Pirelli in this as they make said aero devices. Strange for an Italian company to undermine Ferrari!
Come on get real!!!
Everybody got caught cold on this one; tough, suck it up and get some clever engineers!
Good write up and agree but what i dont get is how the driver can input by pushing and pulling and having enough force to move the wheels at X mph.
There has to be some kind of hydraulic device to assist, it also has to be progressive, you cannot just shove the tyres from toe out to toe in at the push of a lever, there must be preset settings for it to be a total "mechanical" system If its that simple i worry, when and how does the driver make the call to push or pull? Rather odd and used incorrectly it could actually become a disadvantage
If they consider the trick as part of the steering system, it can be mechanically assisted.
The issue for me is that "toe" is also related to suspension geometry, and supposedly it can´t be altered on the go. If it´s altered with an hydraulic device or by a trained monkey sitting on the front wing is irrelevant for that.
im certain the folks at Merc have thought through these implications. It’s pretty damned innovative, to say the least.
what’s scarier is that we can all assume the DAS is not their trump card this year...no way would they show their hand this early. So, in effect, they have all of the tongues wagging about something while still holding a substantial card up their sleeve (imo)
Is Ferrari sandbagging?
Look at Alfa today. Hmmmmm....