2017 Porsche GTE | Page 3 | FerrariChat

2017 Porsche GTE

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by william, Nov 1, 2016.

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  1. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

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    So I guess we are having a conversation about which race car is adhering to the ACO rules. The RULES have been changed for some time. They have been allowing the rules to bend for years. The Corvette has been a prototype from day one. The Porsche and Ferrari were the last to change over to a full prototype package because of GT3\GT2 series.
    I see your point about the Ford. It is very close to the street car.
    It is my understanding the reasoning for the change is to be more competitive. With a prototype race car, you can swap engines, parts faster, keeps cost down and the chassis is more adjustable.
    Everyone is doing it now. Porsche was the last manufacture holding out.
     
  2. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    William I will thank you for the comedic relief. Quoting an Autoblog article down to the date and time and playing on the semantics of their use of the word 'Prototype' really did make me have a good laugh. I get that in your way of looking at the world the Fords were a fraud and I do not think that anyone will convince you out of it nor will I try.

    In my obtuse way of looking at the world I see Ford entering a car, successfully passing pre and post-race scrutineering, standing on the top of the podium, keeping the trophies, and being declared officially Winner of the 24 Hours of LeMans. Then again I also believe that Elvis is dead and that man did indeed walk on the moon but again that is just me being naive :D

    Gatorgreg I totally agree that all of the GT cars can be rightfully called prototypes or 'silhouette' cars and that they differ enough from their road counterparts to not be considered production cars regardless of their homologation. To single out one car is to ignore what everyone else is doing.
     
  3. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    No, the discussion is about Ford being allowed to enter a race when his car isn't eligible

    It seems that many people ignore the fact that to be able to race in WEC in the GTE category, a car manufacturer is supposed to have produced it in a road car version in sufficient number and made it available on several markets FIRST.

    You produce the cars PRIOR to entering them in a race. That's the rule.

    Anyone could buy a Corvette, a Ferrari 488, an Aston Martin or a Porsche 911 before they were seen on the track. They were produced and for sale in many countries before they hit the track, and they still are.

    But the Ford GT is still not produced, and not for sale. So how was it allowed to race in GTE?
    That's the question.

    I can smell a collusion between Ford and the ACO here.
     
  4. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This is what I call a fraud.

    It's just like when a disguised male athlete wins a trophy in a female only competition.
    Is that OK for you?

    The ACO hasn't observed its own rules by accepting the Ford GT at the start.
    The Ford GT didn't qualify as a GTE, because it didn't satisfy the minimum production requirement.

    Is that so difficult to understand?
     
  5. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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  6. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Neither do I.

    By not threatening the ACO with a boycott, the other manufacturers handed Ford a victory on a plate, IMO.

    The sandbagging in practice leading to another BOP adjustment in favour of Ford did the rest.

    Really farcical.
     
  7. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    I have no issue with it, and to be honest it was smart by all parties (including the other competitors). Having Ford entered brings more eyeballs which benefits everyone. Ford entering a year early gives them an extra year to race the car - and unlike the other competitors they don't have continual model refreshes. The last car they could have raced in this was built 10 years ago, so this gives the car a 6-7 year competition life (given it will start deliveries in 2017 and probably end in 2019-2020) and still race for a year or two after that. By that time it will have raced against 2-3 generations of Ferraris and Porsches (and 2 generations of Astons and Vettes as well). They know Ford doesn't continually build these and it helps to have a larger field.

    Also, it's not like this thing isn't going to be made in proper quantities. I could see you opposing it if Ford had something else to race, but they don't. So they said hey, we'll get one ready based heavily on the street car a year ahead of time if you let us race, fill out the field and bring more eyeballs. It's a win-win for all involved. Yeah, they gamed the BOP a bit to win Lemans, but sacrificed the championships to do so. That's a choice any of the teams can make. Ferrari won the manufacturer championship and Aston won the team championship, so you pick your battles. Is it a bit artificial? Yeah, but that's the whole BOP thing and the alternative is F1 style with the risk of a single team running away with it.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Who cares about eyeballs? I certainly don't!!

    Tell me how team like Risi, or AF Ferrari, or Aston Racing, or Porsche System have benefited from the manipulation behind close doors between Ford and the ACO?

    These teams have spent $millions, some of them, to see their name on the leader board at Le Mans, the most prestigious endurance race in the calendar, only to see the race fixed and their chances of a win going to an interloper, a cheater.

    By what you say, Ford has been handed not only a race on a plate, but an unfair advantage for years to come.
    And you think it's alright? Jeezz...
     
  9. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Okay I will come up with this fact: JMW did not get an invitation to race in 2016 because Ford got theirs.

    2014: 19 AM 8 Pro
    2015: 14 AM 9 Pro
    2016: 13 AM 14 Pro

    The ACO wanted Ford so badly they increased the Pro class by 4 Fords and granted Risi to race in Pro again.
     
  10. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    People need to talk to team owners/engineers at WEC and ELMS races.
    Le Mans is politics, about "worlds biggest sports car show" and MONEY
     
  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Hmm... I didn't see Ferrari among the list of companies in the race. Oh, that's right. Ferrari doesn't race sports cars.
     
  12. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    +1
     
  13. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    WEC and ELMS are both administered by the ACO = Le Mans organisers.

    They are one of the most corrupt sporting body.
     
  14. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There were 8 Ferraris entered this year at Le Mans in the GTE category. Some on GTE-Pro, some in GTE-Am. Some factory-supported, some private entries.
     
  15. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Ask Jan Lammers when he raced the Dome Judd LMP1 in the early 2000s against....Audi.
    They only talk when no cameras or sound recording equipment is used.

    LOL not only ACO is co&&upt

    ASO (Dakar, Tour de France Cycling)?
     
  16. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Factory supported ain't the same thing. At least Ford stepped up, how about Ferrari? Regardless of the number of production cars made or not made, there is no way a private team, supported or not, can compete. The result would have been the same even if Ford had made the prerequisite cars. Would you have preferred Ford not to have entered any race cars? So until Ferrari steps up, I don't see the problem. (BTW, given the opportunity, I'm sure Ferrari would have also "cheated.")
     
  17. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    AF Corse (Amoto Ferrari, no connection) is the Ferrari supported team in endurance. I believe Risi is also Ferrari-supported in the US.

    Ferrari has been supporting endurance since 1949, unlike Ford that picks and chooses when it wants to participate. Ferrari supplies race cars to private teams and individuals? For your information, private teams have won numerous times in GTE, and the GTE title has been won by a private team this year too.

    No, the results would not have been the same if Ford had been made to produce the required number of cars; by a rough estimate Ford would have had to wait 2 years before racing his GT, and the other manufacturers would have caught up with more advanced cars then.

    Yes, I would have preferred Ford not to enter any car until it satisfies the rules. If you can't play by the rules, you shouldn't play at all.
     
  18. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Racing is expensive. I'm sure the promoters were happy to have Ford. They would be happy to have Ferrari, but that's not an option, is it?
     
  19. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

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    #69 gatorgreg, Nov 21, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
    EXACTLY!! It's about money and sponsorship dollars not rules. More manufactures more money for the ACO. When you start to understand this concept, you don't get upset about it. On race day the gloves are off and you pull every trick you can muster until you get caught.

    I have heard so many stories from pro drivers complaining about it.
     
  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    What's your point?

    You seem to go round in circle.

    I denounce a situation when a participant is allowed to compete by some manipulation of the rules when it doesn't qualify to enter. That is unfair and detrimental to other participants that observe the rules.

    I don't care if it's Ford or any other car maker. Rules are there to be respected.

    FYI, there were Ferraris in the race, in case you don't know, and Porsches and Astons, and Corvettes, etc...
     
  21. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    don't you think that the other Pro cars will try to cheat / sandbag in 2017?
    maybe stop current BoP with their restrictors, weight and fuel capacity
    But only a maximum of BHP/kW)
    Only aero, suspension, driver skills and the characteristics of the engine are important for a win.

    We keep minimum number of street cars that need to be manufactured BEFORE a race car is being built
     
  22. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't know to be honest.

    If I was a GTE entrant, I would think twice about participating in ACO-managed races in future.
    There is too much manipulations of the rules and the BOP.
    It's like moving sands; you don't know from one race to the next what will be the BOP.
    How can you work with that?
    The proposal to adjust the boost on turbo cars according to atmospheric pressure opens another Pandora box.
    I think it's crazy!

    The Blancpain Series for GT3 is a more level playing field, and with less BS than the ACO.
    In fact, Ferrari top team AF Corse will enter the Blancpain Series next year and limit its WEC involvement.
     
  23. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I know. I used to follow Pescarolo at that time, and he was all in arms about the ACO shenanigans to keep Audi competing. Diesel engines were given a huge break to favour Audi.

    Even after working some equivalency formula, the fastest Petrol LMP were still at least 5 secs per lap slower than the diesel Audi.
    Pesca and several others complained, and some journalists supported their objection, but the organisers just sneered at them, saying Audi was just doing a better job.

    The ACO, I think, is obsessed in attracting big names, and thwarts any attempt by private teams to race on equal terms with them.

    I could write chapters and verses about the French ...
     
  24. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    So you would prefer Ford not race, huh?
     
  25. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Ford can race their GT when they manufactured the minimum number of cars like the other pro's
    The waiver was wrong imho
     

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