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2016 Porsche 911R

Discussion in 'Cars' started by AMG USA, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    Philip
    My guess is:
    The 911R is a really great car. Designed and built as a driver's car by the Motorsport guys.
    The cachet of "limited edition, last version with a manual" drove up prices.
    Seller is pricing this car as he sees fit and good luck to him.
    The production of the 991.2 GT3 with a manual will, for some customers, provide a viable alternative to the "R".
    Increasing supply of what some will see as a substitute at a lower price will not help the premium associated with this model.

    Economic theory aside, I think these are highly desirable cars. Beautifully designed without the wings and other things that "scream" look at me.

    Philip
     
  2. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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    I have a saying: I don't make the market, I just live in it.

    When pricing our cars we look are recent sales and recent advertised comps. Just as with Ferraris, the market sets the price.. TDF's are trading at $1.2-1.4m right now. A 250 GTO is $55 million. Is that wishful thinking and dealers trying to jumpstart the market? When people don't stop buying them, the prices will drop.

    In addition, not that it should matter, we paid 6 figures over sticker ourselves to get this car. I would have loved to buy it at sticker.
     
  3. Zcobra1

    Zcobra1 Formula 3
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    At these price points almost all of these are destined to be super low mile garage
    queens in collector or speculators garages, so much for a drivers car to be enjoyed
    every day.......as it was designed.
     
  4. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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    Correction: was supposed to say "when people stop buying them"
     
  5. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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  6. Mbutner

    Mbutner Formula 3

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    +1

    I have always liked "Buyers set the market, not sellers."
     
  7. speef

    speef Karting

    Oct 28, 2011
    111
    you got it right... and I would add that what it was designed for was as a branding exercise first, then as a machine exercise second... Porsche's 991 line is a very profitable business (possibly the most profitable in the automotive space ever) targeting a sweet demographic, largely middle-aged to boomer, affluent, then branching into the gear-head and non gear-head derivative, depending on model variant ... as with any product placement, it's easy to dissect the demographic by looking at their advertising positioning... Andreas P is a great spokesperson in that regard as he himself happens to represent the demographic perfectly.

    I own several Porsches and they are beautiful cars, but they are first and foremost a business, with branding, and positioning, and a very specific roadmap for planned obsolescence ... don't forget that ...

    I do agree that 997 prices and 911R prices will be affected over time as 991.2 is re-introduced with manual transmission - much of the collectors appeal for the previous models was the "last manual Porsche" you can buy ...

    that said, humans are irrational in that they can rationalize anything, like a $300k premium for something "special", even though that something may share 90% of its Bill of Material with something that costs significantly less and is branded as such (significantly less) ...
     
  8. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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    I do agree that 997 prices and 911R prices will be affected over time as 991.2 is re-introduced with manual transmission - much of the collectors appeal for the previous models was the "last manual Porsche" you can buy ...
    [/QUOTE]

    I disagree on the prices being effected by the 911.2. What makes the prices remain high on cars like this are their limited numbers. I have a GT3 manual on order. I don't expect it to effect the 911R.
     
  9. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    714
    As Speef said - and I agree completely - the actual mechanical components of the 911R are NOT unique or special. Yes it represented a small run of cars with a GT motor with manual transmission, but that run is now to continue with the next batch of GT cars. Plus the next batch of GT models have a substantially superior race tested motor that the R lacks.

    Over time people will recognize the marketing gimmicks. This WILL effect values. My advice to Porsche, as well as speculators: don't get greedy. You may get burned......

    Best.
     
  10. speef

    speef Karting

    Oct 28, 2011
    111
    I disagree on the prices being effected by the 911.2. What makes the prices remain high on cars like this are their limited numbers. I have a GT3 manual on order. I don't expect it to effect the 911R.[/QUOTE]

    I hear you and while I see your point, something in limited numbers should also be differentiated, which the 911R was but will no longer be given the 991.2

    911Rs are fetching close to CGT money, which - in my mind at least - was a "true" limited edition car, which can not even be compared to the 911R, and was different in every way than any other car Porsche produced and was not followed up a year later with a similar car with a bigger wing and no stripes...

    So yes, limited edition, but how different ad for what premium ...

    side by side, ltd plaque and stripes aside, what are the major differences between the 911R and the 991.2 manual ?
     
  11. njcycleguy

    njcycleguy Formula Junior
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    Dec 27, 2008
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    Umm.. compared to base 911.2? A lot. The 911R has the GT3/GT3RS motor, suspension, center locks, a custom diffuser to offset the lift normally offset by the huge rear wing of the GT3/GT3RS.
     
  12. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    714
    BTW the 991.2 GT3 will also have the center locks, suspension, brakes, diffuser, and gear box of the R.

    It will NOT have the magnesium roof and a few weight savings measures (it will weigh about 50 kg more). It will not have retro plaid seat centers of R.

    It WILL have a superior 4 liter race motor with more power and a 9000 rpm redline (vs 8500 rpm in non race motor of R). It will be higher performance than R.

    It will cost less than R MSRP vs MSRP.
     
  13. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    i think that new gt3 manual really screwed over the 911 R guys... but only if they were trying to sell the car for profit. Otherwise... at MSRP... they got a really cool car.

    This is why when people ask me why I don't see Porsche as Ferrari... I always answer with...

    Because the best Porsche is almost always the next one.
     
  14. speef

    speef Karting

    Oct 28, 2011
    111
    well said...

    I just don't get why people pay what the pay for the R - the 991.2 Gt3 is just as good if not a better car at a third the price... but the market is the market, who am I to judge...
     
  15. speef

    speef Karting

    Oct 28, 2011
    111
    sorry was referring to the 991.2 gt3 & RS vs the 991 911R

    it would seem to me that the 991.2 gt3 has most of the 911R features plus a race derived powerplant ... and it lists for a third the price...
     
  16. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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    We can say that here. But try saying that on Rennlist and you'll get hammered. lol.
     
  17. Patek

    Patek Formula 3
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    I did notice today that the new GT3 in manual is 3.8 seconds 0-60 and without it something in the range of 3.2 seconds.

    Ceramic brakes are about $9,200.

    Base price was $144,000..

    So why not just buy a Ferrari 458. The Ferrari is faster, better looking, smoother, etc. the poor porsche tops out at 198mph.

    Seems amazing in today's world that a 7 year old 458 is quicker than a 2017 GT3.
     
  18. AMG USA

    AMG USA Formula Junior
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    Its not an either or situation. Porsche and Ferrari are distinctly different animals, and both are awesome. I say buy both!
     
    LARRYH likes this.
  19. riccardone

    riccardone Karting

    May 24, 2015
    135
    It's not. Around a track, the gt3 will puke in the 458's face. Not even close.
     
  20. Shopcat

    Shopcat Karting

    Nov 14, 2015
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    Tulsa, OK
    What? GT3 is a track focused car...458 is not. Why would you think the 458 is quicker?
     
  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Not sure how you measure faster, or better. If i cared about 0-60 i could just get a hellcat or a Gtr. Ever run a 458 round a track for more than 2 laps, which car do you think will be quicker at lap 10, which will last the day. Which can you afford to run cssistently ie under 1k per day on track.(answer cayman Gt4)

    As to the street, i highly doubt anyone is using nay of these cars anywhere near their limits.

    irrelevant perfomance is frankly irrlevant other than for paper bragging.
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #47 boxerman, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
    If i remember correctly there was a 997 also made in really limited numbers with houndstooth inerior and a double bubble roof. Whats the premium on those now.

    The 90s speedsters had huge premiums new, then were reckognised as just ebign cut down windsheild convertibles with a fiberglass cap, and then came round on the air cooled frenzy to having big premiums again.

    The 997 Gt3s are reckognised as being the last great non gimisk analog drivers cars, and while watercooled they also have a real metzger motor, hence their enduring appeal.

    The 991 R and Gt3 has 4ws, eps, is big and lacks the mezger motor, thyere great cars, but no drivign report calls them seminal cars like the 997 Gt3 series, and that includes the R.

    My bet is the next seminal car from porche will be the cayman GT4rs if porche makes one with shorter gearing and a Gt3 motor, it will be a benchmark porche.

    After that, well if the next 911 variant is lighter gain, the gT3 version may go back tot eh magic of the 997.
     
  23. speef

    speef Karting

    Oct 28, 2011
    111
    this thread has longer legs than I thought :) good stuff...

    I concur, although I would would call the CGT, 993 GT2 and 996 GT3 the last truly analog Porsches as the 997s are semi-digital platforms... all three of the above are much livelier on track and feel "free-range organic" vs starting to feel 997 "synthetic" ... that said I owned a 997.1 gt3 and absolutely loved it... should've kept it ...

    Ferraris are so much more emotional in every way, but if I were a betting man, I would not pit a Ferrari against a Porsche on any kind of endurance basis... yes, the breed is improving, but Ferraris are much more complex systems, at least that has been my personal experience having now owned a total of 9, with the notable exception of my 550 and 430, everything else had product quality that did not fit its brand quality... (vs 20+ Porsches which in total had little to no problems, they just kept on taking daily abuse in all conditions)

    which is better ? they are all great, and they can't be compared... they have different value propositions and satisfy very different consumer requirements... they're all amazing kit and we are fortunate to be able to experience them, in their own way and for their own reasons
     
  24. Patek

    Patek Formula 3
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    What is amazing is that it took porsche almost a half a decade to make a "track" that will beat a 2010 Ferrari. That is amazing, porsche is good on fit and finish, but for a Road Car, not talking about a Track Ferrari. But it takes porsche to build a 2017 Track car to edge out a Ferrari Street car...... I like Porsche, but would never own a two door. But am looking at buying the Panamera Turbo.
     
  25. flat_plane_eddie

    flat_plane_eddie F1 Rookie
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    It's not amazing because the 2017 GT3 is a lot cheaper than the Ferrari was new. If Porsche could sell a car for the same MSRP as the 488 you can bet it would be just as fast, if not faster.

    You're comparing apples to oranges.
     

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