2013 F1 GULF AIR BAHRAIN GRAND PRIX: RACE **SPOILERS MAYBE** | Page 17 | FerrariChat

2013 F1 GULF AIR BAHRAIN GRAND PRIX: RACE **SPOILERS MAYBE**

Discussion in 'F1' started by SPEEDCORE, Apr 20, 2013.

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  1. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
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    John!

    I thought you of all people would have known better than this.


    No team goes to every race with the same engine map. Maps are tuned for each circuit according to the strengths/aero capabilities of the car. Works teams will know more about various mapping options and its effect than any customer will. Customers will not be able to request specific dyno runs mimicking Monaco, or Spa with various maps. I'm sure Renault will supply some of this information, but that final few precious percent will escape a non works team.
     
  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    +1. Not neccecarily applying to Crinoid, but I see it fairly often here when a (or both) Ferrari's are out of the running/terrible result, the race is therefore crap. Perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised this being a Ferrari forum but one would hope they are actually fans of racing in itself rather than blindly supporting the one team.

    I agree.

    I think that last quote belongs to a certain Carroll Shelby...
    Whilst you make a good point, I think what Ian is getting at is that they don't design an engine around the car or vice versa. They do tune to it of course, but then it would still be different for both teams.

    I know that they tune the exhaust manifolds at various lengths for different tracks, but then this is once again up to the characteristics of a certain car. The engine stays the same, so it's up to the engine engineers to work out which engine map etc will work best for each track.
     
  3. teak360

    teak360 F1 World Champ

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    Someone who doesn't understand what power and torque really are, undoubtedly.
    This myth will never die.
     
  4. 05011994

    05011994 Formula 3
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    As an aside, did it seem like the drivers on the podium have an issue with David Coulthard this last week? Seb never really answered any of his questions, Kimi was Kimi, maybe just a residual from last year when they all got in trouble for swearing on TV.
     
  5. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Not really IMO. They did get asked by the voice over at the track not to swear because it's live broadcast, lol.
     
  6. vintageracer27

    vintageracer27 Karting

    Dec 9, 2004
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    I used to be of the similar opinion that the works teams had a decided advantage being able to develop the car around the engine, etc. But, after seeing the Brawn 001 fitted with a Mercedes power plant at the eleventh hour when it had been designed as a Honda for almost two years....well, we all know what happened with that experiment. With the limitations on engine packaging and mapping, I'm not so sure the works advantage still holds true.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I don't think there is much gained from being a works team. I'd say they have a chassis and a separate engine, gearbox, etc. teams and who knows how much they talk. If it is like where I work ... not much communication would occur.
    Pete
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ian Anderson
    +1

    :eek:

    ;) Note that I didn't claim it to be true, just a commonly held belief..... Care to expand upon why you believe it to be a myth? I've always thought it to be a pretty good summary of what it's all about - Sure, there's no argument that HP matters ("power!") but usable power (torque) is (one of) the keys IMO.....

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Please Ian don't go down this path ... we spent years discussing Power versus Torque in an infamous thread before.
    Pete
     
  10. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    :( Hmmph! ;)

    Must have been before my time. Certainly don't want to get into any pissing contests, I just thought it was an interesting comment, counter to Mr Shelby's (apparent) assertion that warranted further discussion.....

    Sounds like the original thread got out of control......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #411 Fast_ian, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    +1

    I'd go even further and say they're messing with maps between sessions. The rules only allow 'em to load 2 into the car at any one time, but AFAIK there's no limit on how many they can store 'offline'.

    Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think that's correct. The engine guys are the engine guys regardless of who's car it's in - If they have the data, it'll be known to all is my take.

    Now, back in 'the good old days' it was different; Big differences between engine styles etc certainly had a huge impact on packaging. Nowadays (rightly or wrongly ;)) there's no wiggle room; Minimum weight, CofG, mounting points and so on are all specified - Theoretically at least one could unmount a Renault and replace it with a Ferrari using the same pickup points.... Even more so with the new specs as I suspect most 'customers' will buy not just the powertrain but the 'box that goes with it.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Ian, if you need some reading material:

    1st: FerrariChat.com: Archive through April 23, 2003
    2nd: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/9335-torque-vs-hp-360-replacement-3.html

    Massive threads on the torque versus HP subject.
    Pete
     
  13. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    Simple case of plugging in the laptop and load the other software in. Should take less than 2 minutes really.
     
  14. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Hmm, good point.
     
  15. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Plus, for many years, the McLaren and Red Bull were more competitive than the Mercedes and Renault. Even Sauber beats Ferrari sometimes.
     
  16. curtisc63

    curtisc63 Formula 3
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    Ah, but remember the BGP advantage was the DD - any engine thrown between the rails would have worked.
     
  17. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Having just had a quick scan, "thanks"...... I think!

    I noticed the "protagonsists" remain consistent too. ;) [Teak, no further comments needed - If required I'll resurrect the second thread. :eek: :)]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  18. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    It still does, even with that example. That's the scary part - Brawn was quoted as saying that they had to hack the car to fit the Mercedes engine, that it was tightly designed around the planned Honda unit and the dimensions were quite different. (IIRC, the Mercedes unit was bigger). The resulting aerodynamic compromises actually cost the car about 0.5 seconds per lap compared to what it would have achieved with the Honda power plant. Given how the Brawn dominated with the Mercedes engine, it's interesting to imagine how it would have dominated with the smaller Honda engine!
     
  19. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'd say the grey area around the DD was key to their success of the car early on.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I think the Honda engine must have been *****, in power delivery or something.
    Pete
     
  21. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Which does surprise me, but probably right, however I rate Honda engines highly.
     
  22. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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  23. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    OK, seems this thread is about to die, so a "little" hijack here having now read both threads! :eek:

    I certainly don't want to start another pissing contest (go read the threads Pete linked!) but FWIW, my conclusions;

    - Teak360 is wrong, Mr Shelby is correct.
    - Mark Donahue's famous quote; "It you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the entrance of the next, you have enough HP" is, strictly speaking, incorrect; It's torque that's responsible for black stripes.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     

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