"I think with the words per post count getting way up there at this point I need to lower my average..." LOL! Car counts are power, with sanctioning bodies, tracks, sponsors, everywhere. John's concern for inclusiveness is well placed, the series really needs big fields. Selling the FCRA car package falls to John, and he's just one guy. Doing an e-mail to all FCRA members explaining options and soliciting comments takes time, then reviewing the comments, etc., takes a lot of time, too much, really. Again, a wing and a splitter, steel brakes optional, open exhaust and shocks free: that's my package. The first three were part of the 2011 package, and all I'm adding is free shocks. Of course I'm biased in this, I have Penskes I've invested a year testing, and switching to stock will cost me a fortune in parts and more testing. A democracy probably isn't going to work. But car counts are everything. Bring 40 Ferraris to the table and people will listen. It's a great show and everyone is happy, including the drivers.
Agree 100%, but see post #135 where I not only identified the issue, but proposed a workable solution to this. And to be fair, I am light but not overpowered. Engine, exhaust, ECU, and intake are 100% stock.
stock cars don't put out over 330 RWHP, not even close. you won't find street cars that put out over 300 RWHP. highest stock 355 C I've seen is 320 RWHP and that's a perfect day, most are 310 RWHP.
Colin's put up the same number as mine and I think he is also still stock. I have a build sheet from its rebuild in 2008 (paperwork from FoW and from the shop that did the sublet work), my ECU box still has the factory seal on it, and the exhaust and intake are available for anyone to take a look at. My car has been under Paul Prideaux's care (or his friends) since it left the Challenge series. My powerplant is clearly stock, there is nothing to debate. If you doubt the output, then the only explaination is a bad dyno run. I will happily run it again and submit a lower number. Rob, did you run race gas or pump gas when you did your dyno pull? Mine put out 315'ish on old pump gas but 330 with fresh race gas, and this happened over the course of the same day. Paul was actually the one who brought the car to the dyno, the test was done just before I bought it.
dyno results are difficult to quantify due to machine differences, air correction factors, atmospheric conditions. +/- 20hp is as close as you could get. When testing if a new modification works you need to test on the same day same machine. Sometimes if the temps of the day swing too much those results are skewed. They only way to survey for any meaningful data is for everyone to get on the dyno like in impound and survey the group. GPS telemetry math channeled HP is surprisingly accurate seen in even low level DAQ systems.
Colin's isn't near stock, but that's his business. ECU won't do much, easiest power increases for our cars are headers and then porting.
Rob: This is the first time I have ever been accused of remaining silent. I'm going to respond to you and point out were my cost argument is. It is within the posts. But after so do this, I really need to get back to work. I am tired of debating this issue. This thread has bobbed and weaved from 355 shocks to every modification of these cars. Ive solicited arguments in costs. I cannot believe I am being accused of ignoring them. The costs that I've already pointed out: 355: 1) cost of a total rebuild of stock shocks $1,600. 2) cost of replacement adjustable shocks: $5,000. That's the cost difference. Yes, I am focused on the car itself, not the length of testing you can do with your car. Your lasted argument which adds two sets of shocks and two sets of tires is unpersuasive to me. Yes Rob, every driver has the option of renting tracks and testing like madmen, fiddling with set up, testing again, changing set up, testing again. You can do this with either set up. So I remain unconvinced by your argument. So have other members of the FCRA. I had one FCRA 430 driver who participated the entire season call me and addressed this very concern z. He said "John, if you allow adjustible shocks, it's not just the $8,000 shocks, it's all of the testing they require to get them right. I simply cannot afford this and I hope you stand firm". So Rob, you can test and re test with each system. So I don't consider the testing as part of the shock rebuild/replacement cost. And Rob I'm not convinced that the implementation of adjustible shocks are cheaper. Neither do many other people. Rob, you've relied upon many many arguments for shocks. And I am not convinced by them. I stated i did not want to make them free bc of the cost and advantage. I said Id weight those that had them. The inconsistency is that you claimed that I should drop the option bc weight could even, yet you said you'd always chose shock bc they were such an advantage. You then chided me bc I said I'd try to even cars with weight, so why couldn't you have them. Then you claimed that I couldn't possibly weight cars safely. When I repeated my cost goal, you then switch your argument to the fact that weight was and the lack of shocks was dangerous. Look Rob, you've given me every scenario. I hear you. I do not believe shocks decreases costs. I know that you desperately want them. I read that loud and clear. Understand that your pole and the voices on this blog are not the majority on the modification issues. I appreciate Will and his measured response . He says, John I disagree. It's not that big a cost and we like it and want it. But I realize you need to take a top down view of the whole. I appreciate this from Will. I think his arguments are honest. To address the 430 issue. The 355 have been out a lot longer than the 430, and I do consider the difference that there may be a lot more 355 already with replaced shocks (and since cost is a two way factor) I consider this . But as far as I know I've got two 430s with adjustible shocks, and about 40 that understand likely have Have adjustible shocks. I haven't heard many of the need of many 430 guys as needing full shock replacement. I know if I opened it up in the 430 class to adjustibles right now, then no less than 10-15 guys are going to spend $8,000 each for shocks and spend money testing and tuning them. Im getting push back on allowing this to happen. Look, can you guys fit the desire for shocks into a cost or safety argument?? Yes you can. For God sake I make a living of cramming what I want into a pre established law. I can do it to. The issue is that we have a founding principle for the FCRA Chalkenge car classes that are established that modifications are an exception. And exception for safety or costs. These have to be overriding factors. That said, the headache of trying to do this is whining on me, and this has taken a lot of my time that could be better spent Elseware on the club. To that end: Please direct sponsors to the sponsor opportunity section of www.ferrariclubracing.com. If you have someone you think might be interested please give them my personal email and I will follow up. This is the biggest thing you can do right now.
Hmm Rob, the only thing not stock on my car is the headers. I cracked the Challenge ones, then cracked a second, then put on the fabspeed set up which is the same as Challenge except the outlets require modified Cats and mufflers. This year I took off the cats and the mufflers and had to replace the fabspeed with a tubular to get rid of the cladding around the snakes that I am convinced causes the cracking. I di get a replacement chip to try and overcome a misfire between 8K and 8.5K that has been around since I bought the car. We found that problem was caused by a weak alternator and with its replacement we put back the original chips because they have a reve limiter whereas the custom ones had none. Dyno has gone from 295 to 320 to 325. The big jump happened when I did the belts and replaced a couple of valves. I have the bills to prove to all of this.
As has Grand Am and W/C for turbo cars generally. There is not a lot to be had from NA cars if the cams are stock.
Hey guys the stock shocks of the 355 ARE adjustable. Manually or electrically. I was swithing mine from Normal to Sport throughout the last race at Daytona. You can also reprogram the ECU shock adjust interface to change the rate of adjustment if you have the wherewithal.
It's all good, John. You've done a spectacular job on many, many fronts with regards to the series and I understand you are going to have to go through a few iterations on some issues before reaching clarity and stabilization. I'm sure this will be an evolution and 2013 will improve upon 2012, just as 2012 will be better than 2011. Please don't let my disagreement be construed as lack of support or thanks for creating the series. We disagree on rules but are aligned on everything else. For me, I'm at peace with whatever you decide. I will sort my car in the most cost effective manner that I can, disclose everything I do, and will put myself in the Boards hands to class me any way they see fit. Even if that means running with the 360s or 430s. Whatever they think is best for the series, I'll just hang low and drive!
I have experience with this in NASA and it works. Sometimes people get hung up on the actual number but the real story is in the consistency of the readings and looking at the outliers from the norms...
Rob Thanks. Sometime blog forums allow us all to get carried away. We are thrilled that you will be with us next season. I am working hard with the board and we are making compromises and will have something out soon.
I've already set my running events, fishing tournaments, and hunting schedule. Hopefully a few races find open weekends for me.
I hear you. Rob next northeast event swing over to Naples Airport and I'll share the cost of the gas! Not sure if you like flying over the Gulf?
Bilstein has a motorsport damper for the 430, I'm waiting on cost and availability info. I'm sure we can build a similar system for 360's. "Converting" a OE F355 damper to knobs/ bleed adjusters that are easier to use manually vs. the OE solenoid/ computer system is not a Frankenstein conversion; we alter dampers all the time to offer something better for the driver and it works every time. Unless we put together some kind of contract that requires us to "police" F355 dampers for valving changes (I suspect John doesn't want this type of scrutineering) we can valve any response curve your heart desires and offer tuning advice; so if someone want's to spend $10k on dampers and consulting we'll take the work to improve your car. Want your car to pump down on the bump rubber like NASCAR does with the COT? We can to it. Want remote reservoirs for additional bump adjustment, more fluid volume and area for heat rejection we can do that too. Point is if someone wants to stick with the OE Bilstein but has the need to tune, tune, tune to refine, adjust, optimize we can do that for you. Anyone with specific questions/ concerns/ inquiries is invited to call me: 847-638-4226 or email [email protected]. Thanks! Rob S.
You use to be able to land sea planes in the waterways in Naples until a crazy retired american airline pilot got busted for buzzing boats. Now you can't.
And W/C, GrandAm, SCCA and NASA schedules are out there too. What worries me is getting accommodation at the FCRA events if the sanctioning body(s) have already published their schedules. My commute for Mid Ohio is 60 miles absent cancellations.
