Rob/Will, I wouldn't be too offend by the comments. I think they're being taken somewhat out of context. The term 'disaster' likely sounds worse than he intended. He is right that the factory stuff is not awful; and just bolting on Motons, without some testing, could certainly make the car slower. Compared to the cost of real testing, the shocks themselves are a drop in the bucket.... Mark
that's a decent idea. racing rules are like gun laws, for the most part it only hurts people that play by the rules. it is exhausting and extensive to enforce the rules, F1 and NASCAR even have a tough time keeping up. rules don't mean **** without adequate enforcement and only hurt the good guys that play fair from the start and not reactively to enforcement. 2011 was a joke in regards to rules and enforcement, there was ZERO rules enforcement this year! (I am able to accept that as new series and car counts more important than fair competition). 2011 rules read... What this means is every 355 and 360 that ran with non-standard shocks, ECU mod, airbox work, ported heads, or other mods (lightening 360) should have been moved to next class. What that means for 430 is that any of the mods listed would DQ the car or more likely a 4th mod class would have been created. I'm not throwing stones and agree with no enforcement for the first season of 2011, but out of our 3 champions maybe only Peter met the rules (did he have any ECU or lightening work?). There are only two solutions for each class. Make it open and no enforcement or cheating concerns vs. make a COMPLETE rule set and enforce the **** out of it to the letter of the law with TEETH!
I am not a driver. I make my living as a technician. The optimum goal when setting up shocks and springs is to find the right combination of dampening and spring rate so that the wheel tire combination never leaves the racing surface. In a perfect world the tire would follow the road profile perfectly. In the practical world this does not happen. Bumps in the surface are not the same length or height. Corners are fast, medium, and slow. The best anyone can hope for is to find a set up that helps you make up time in a section of the race course that is most beneficial to your overall lap time. This is an enormous challenge for anyone...period. Aero devices cheat a little by forcing the tire to be pushed down to the racing surface. In these cases the tire itself can become the spring/dampener as will the bump rubbers or packers on the shock. Technicians and many drivers enjoy the challenge of unlocking these secrets and ultimately achieving faster times in a car more comfortable to drive. We do not want our driver to get out of the car feeling like he just went ten rounds with Mike Tyson no matter how fast he is going. We are all communicating via computers. I would venture to say that the majority of us can only realize about 20% of the machines capacity. I feel the same way about 4 ways. But we all like to learn a little bit more each day.
The board has met and while we do not have final detail positions we have narrowed the issues: Those who want a wide open modification of the series are in the great minority, either in the membership or on the board. It's just is not going to happen. I created the FCRA series based upon certain principles and put together a board to help realize those principles. After safety the main principle is cost. So any arguments should be based around that principle. We will publish rules for 2012, which will reflect the principles upon which the FCRA was founded. In 2011 i wrote rules. I had several meetings telling prior that in 2011 we were not going to disqualified but you needed to look to be compliant in 2012. In 2012 we are going to do a reasonable job to police. I'm not recruiting Nazi Stormtroopers but we are likely going to have a major sanctioning body to help us. This is still a gentlemans club and it will be run as such. If you cheat and dont disclose modifications then you are not a gentleman and that will come out in time . The FCRA will be in control but we will have professional guidance. We are going to make accommodations and deal with non compliant cars do that there is not a huge cost penalty for cars that are non compliant. Weight will be assessed to non compliant cars. After safety cost will be the main factor in deciding the spec of the cars. If we get it wrong in 2012 then we have an opportunity to redo it in 2013. Hope this helpes define things a bit better and narrows the discussion. We will have rules set out soon.
John, Rob set up the poll to be public, you can click on one of the numbers and see who voted for what. Jerome, Will, and Mark all voted for open modification and they are 430 guys. Just saying, I'm not involved. <edit - I see poll asks about 348/355, so their vote may be different for us then they would vote for themselves>
My vote would be the same for any or all classes, and it seemed like the thread had drifted into all classses. Although the title is obviously 348/355 specific. I'm still a little surprised there's so much turmoil about shocks. Remember, even Rob S's rebuilt 355 shocks would have been illegal in Challenge. The idea that we can go back in time and race these cars in exactly Challenge trim, I'm afraid, is flawed. Not a huge deal, I"ll come to all the races I can, and openly disclose exactly what's been done to my car(s). I'm not planning to put the power windows back in my 355...... Mark
John, even if the final language isn't ready, it would be helpful to have guidance on any issues you can address: Hp spec Weight spec Brakes steel and carbon both legal, or only steel? Front and rear wing rules, dimensions, height, etc Headers/exhaust Shocks It's not fair to say, at least in my case, that I'm for open mods. I'm for the aero, the brake conversion, and the shocks and springs. BFD. That doesn't seem wild or expensive to me, but obviously I am in a significant minority. My guys tell me that the stock shocks are about as expensive as my 3 way adjustable Penskes. So much $ for an inferior product.
Actually, it is about double, because instead of getting adjustable shocks, in Challenge you buy two sets, which also makes testing much more expensive.
Switching to hp and wt, and maybe this needs its own thread, but I hear almost everyone saying this should be managed. Here is my suggestion, coming from my experience as a series director with NASA: First, each season every car must present a fresh dyno run completed on a DynoJet model. For 2012 I might suggest 'fresh' would be anything completed from October 1, 2011 forward. Must show 3 consecutive runs with the highest rwhp number used as the official number. Weight is then managed by setting a HP/WT ratio for each class. Set each class based on the hypothetical target each car was designed with but include the weight of the driver in this total. For example, the 355 hypothetical number is 9.0 so a car with 325 rwhp would need to weight a minimum of 2,925 lbs with driver. A car making 335 rwhp would need to weight 3,015 lbs with driver. (By adding the driver to the hypothetical ratio that was set without driver we can account for some modest lightening of the car) Require each car to have their individual minimum weight applied to a side window of the car. Then compliance is as easy as rolling across the scales after a race and comparing the weight to what's indicated on the window. Allow a 5 lb fudge factor the FIRST time they cross the scales that weekend (to account for potential scale differences), then require future weighings that weekend to be in perfect compliance. Changes to engine, intake, or exhaust would require a new dyno run. This allows previously performed exhaust or engine mods to be fairly penalized across a common scale. No need to bring a dyno to the track, this is a gentlemen's series and we should trust one another not to produce a fake dyno or cheat. That said, allow for protests to be filed and the engine to be sealed for a post race dyno inspection. If the car is legal, person protesting pays for the dyno run. If guilty, owner bears the cost and is DQ'ed and/or suspended. Quick, easy, effective, and has worked wonderfully in NASA for many years. Only tough part is setting the ratio for each class. I think I have the 355 number pretty close to ideal. Maybe someone else could look at the other models? New thread and new poll?
Groovy! I look forward to spending double the money already spent on testing. John - I really do believe you are doing what you feel is best for the series, and you've done an amazing job getting so far. Having any specifics at all on final car configuration would be helpful. I assume the other teams are in the same position. Everyone who's serious presumably will need to prepare. It also would be helpful to have the schedule as soon as possible, even if you have to dribble out dates as they are firmed up. Thanks, Will
As promised I have had shocks quoted by Ferrari dealer. These are list prices so a discount may be available. pn Description Cost 174722 360 Front Shock $2215 197020 360 Rear Shock $2215 224336 430 Front Shock Standard Soft $2840 224339 430 Rear Shock Standard Hard $2840 181400 430 Front Shock Optional Hard $2650 181402 430 Rear Shock Optional Soft $2650 Some of the 430 Challenge racers have used 360 Shocks and they have been accepted as legal. There is no doubt you can spend $8K to $10K going the stock route for new Ferrari Factory shocks depending on your discount. Any suggestions?
I think that modifications that make the car safer to drive at speed should be allowed. In this series, Safety is a number one concern. Regards, Jim
I am not a current participant in your organization and am just a 348 owner from the outside looking in, but why not work with an aftermarket company to develop a spec shock/adj sway bar setup for the 348/355 platform. This certainly would help keep costs low and level the playing field among racers. I am sure there would also be people with street driven 348/355's that would purchase these items to help increase purchasing power for the club. You could even have the spec part producer help sponsor the series. I previously ran in an "open" class that allowed any available shock to be used. This led to people spending massive amounts of money on double and triple adjustable shocks with a huge investment in chasis/shock dyno testing etc. This made it very difficult for budget minded racers to run at the front and allowed certain racers to spend their way to the podium. No racing organization is immune to this situation if the rules allow it. Just my two cents, I wish everyone luck and safe racing in the 2012 season.
Hmm - taking what John has written at face, the question becomes whether the shock, aero, exhaust, spring, bar, weight reduction modifications being requested address safety first and foremost? I think on balance they enhance safety and certainly don't hurt. Then the question is do they minimize cost? Again on balance it seems that they do, especially over more than one season. At least that is my read of the data we have on the 355 and 360.
Interesting conversation here... I've skimmed most of the posts and would like to shed some light on the Bilstein shocks OE on F355/ F355 Challenge. The internal design is deflected disc, a system utilized by every motorsport damper manufacturer (except one who specializes in rally raid vehicles) I can valve virtually any damping response curve into a Bilstein, be it OE Ferrari or other sourced shock I write this post from my hotel room in Orlando, here for the Performance Racing Industry trade show and will be meeting with Bilstein to investigate an easier method of adjusting OE Ferrari - Bilstein shocks vs. retaining the solenoid motors or locking the little gears Your OE Bilstein can be converted for field serviceability and for any owner/ team who retains our services I'm happy to train their technicians in maintenance, inspections and oil change methods I can valve a road-F355 shock to Challenge specifications, this can reduce cost in that you can source a used shock and revavle to Challenge spec On the subject of "tuning" motorsport dampers, the NUMBER ONE mistake drivers/ techs make is overdamping the suspension. It's easy to do because in general drivers 'usually' love the feel of an overdamped system as it typically responds to steering input quickly, as though the chassis is reading the mind of the driver... so the driver has difficulty softening the damping as he's afraid the chassis will loose that instantaneous corner entry feeling. The second mistake commonly made (perhaps not really a mistake) is forgetting (or not knowing) that the suspension damper is a timing device, controlling the rate at which load transfers from tire to tire (inside-outside/ front-rear and more importantly diagonally cross chassis). Yes, the subject of damping often tough to wrap one's brain around and it's easy to get "lost" in the adjustments available. Every pro team performs a "scan" of damping adjustments during testing to ensure they're still in the ballpark. "When in doubt of shock settings, or when spring/ ARB changes are not doing what you'd expect, set your shocks full soft all the way around and see what happens." - Rob Schermerhorn Hope this helps!
Thanks Rob. I am happy with the rebuild you did for me in 2009 through James Patterson at Norwoods and can relate to the points you made. I have raised for this group the issue that we (probably meaning 4 or 5) of us cannot expect you to turn around all or rebuilds on the proverbial dime. But you are our best resource so the compromise you offer of training a team tech or two to do the servicing would be a low cost solution.
I'm not sure what the OE 355 shock is but if Rob can shrader valve the shock so that it is user serviceable for oil changes maybe you could change dampening charactorisitcs with the nitrogen pressure like you can with the Moton remote cansisters? You can really feel a difference with those pressure changes. Also the 1/4 turn dial on the top of the shock rod I wonder if a different rod could be placed for more clicks of adjustability? Then you could have some adjustments to tinker and still keep the costs down...maybe. Maybe that can be sort of a poor man's double adjustable.
Nitrogen pressure adjustment change "nose force" only, not damping. You do feel a difference but it's not a damping force change. For example, Bilstein shock rods are 14mm in diameter (25.4mm/inch conversion, = 0.55 inch. Area of shock rod is 0.238 sq in) Say nitrogen pressure is 200 psi. Therefore nose force = 200*0.238 = 48 lb (rounding)). Nose force "pushes" the tire into the ground (direction of the force) which changes how the shock feels as it moves in bump and rebound; additive force in rebound, counter force in bump. This is exactly what I'm working on now; at the least it will require a change in shock rod and retain original piston and valving.
Thank you! Thanks, but again with scheduling we can turn around a bunch of shocks within a week without difficulty. Let's say we schedule for a week or two in February we can manage 20 shocks in that time without difficulty.
Great post. I bought my car new, it came with one set of shocks and bars. I suppose I need to buy the other set of shocks and bars, dyno all the shocks to make sure they are actually doing what they're supposed to do, then test everything, as Mark has mentioned, even though I suspect I know which combination I'll prefer. Doesn't sound cost effective.
As of this morning 19 out of 20 people surveyed want shocks, springs, aero to be open in the 348/355 class and the majority of those folks want it without a weight penalty. There really isn't much of a debate here, the drivers are giving a very clear indication of what they want. In my opinion it makes no sense to pump time and money into R&D to modify a shock that at the end of the day, still can't differentiate between compression and rebound. There are lots of options sitting on the shelf right now that have been tested, offer more functionality, and don't cost much more than a set of tires. Why Frankenstein the stock shock when there are proven models available for installation right now? With the input so strongly in one direction, we need the official decision so we can all make our preparations. Making changes in February is WAY TOO LATE! As it has been pointed out, testing is critical and with winter upon us it becomes increasingly difficult to schedule test dates, especially since most of us have a day job. If a decision were made TODAY, it would still be about Jan 1 before parts were installed and testing could begin. That only gives us about 8 weekends before the cars are shipped to Sebring. Please give us the green light so we can get started ....
In Challenge, to run up front, actually you buy scads of STD and OPT, knowing they will vary. Then you dyno all of them and pair them up, then you spend a fortune testing them by physically setting up multiple spring/shock combos, and running them, constatnly putting the car back on setup pads, keeping the tires fresh all the time........ $$$$$$$ Still amazed this is being debated. Aftermarket shocks are cheaper and better and should undoubtedly be allowed in all classes. (And my 430 has stock shocks!!) Mark
"In Challenge, to run up front, actually you buy scads of STD and OPT, knowing they will vary. Then you dyno all of them and pair them up, then you spend a fortune testing them by physically setting up multiple spring/shock combos, and running them, constatnly putting the car back on setup pads, keeping the tires fresh all the time........ $$$$$$$" If you've played for keeps in a spec series, you learn ... now please don't say anything else.
